Grr. Return of the King makes me angry.

[JimAde]

That was cliche, but it gave the film-makers a chance to show Frodo seriously consider just giving up and dying. In the book that was handled with a more detailed description of how he never really healed, but here it was done in a quick (and I think effective) bit of action.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

...The fact that Saruman directly tells them he's gonna go ruin the Shire and then they go sit in Rivendell for a couple months, just makes it worse for me.

That's pretty consistent with their previous behavior:
GANDALF: "You're carrying around the most dangerous artifact in existence, forged of pure EV-IL."
FRODO: "Well, I guess I should get moving sometime in the next couple weeks, then, eh?"
GANDALF: "Well, there's no real hurry. You should futz around here for a few months at least. Give your dim friend Peregrine time to catch on."

For me, personally, that was the biggest leap in the entire book. Dwarves, dragons, nazgul, no problem. But that level of stupidity is absurd.

And, yes, I know that is neither the original dialogue, nor a reasonable approximation. It is, in fact, an entirely unreasonable facsimile that nonetheless illustrates a moment where Gandalf's extreme age must have overcome the fact that he was immortal, leading to perhaps the most drastically senile decision on record.

Which just illustrates the source of the (handful) of problematic changes that were made to the story: in many ways Peter Jackson and the other individuals who adapted the screen play missed what was important about the books.

In your opinion, of course. What is "important about the books" depends greatly on your point of view. For some people, they hit the high points precisely. For some, (like me) they were very, very close. For others, it seems that they missed entirely. There are so many things going on in the books, anyway, that there's enormous room for individual differences and interpretation. There is no one thing (or even set of things) that is going to be equally important to all people.

Given that, I think Jackson and Co. did a pretty good job of hitting the themes and moments that resonate with most people. Of course, following Amal Shukup's spot-on post, I have to concede that they dropped the ball a bit with that scene. However, they handled the Charge of the Rohirrim so well, (my favorite moment of reading or movie-watching, EVAR) that I'm willing to forgive.

It has merit in a narrative system that's 1500 years or more divorced from what we're used to reading and watching.

Point taken.

However, it has been positioned, packaged, and sold as a novel. Arguably, Tolkien himself would have preferred a different label, but a novel it remains. And within the (justifiably applicable) bounds of that form, it has problems.

I've always felt that LotR was an incredible story hampered at times by Tolkien's dreadful lapses of writing and redeemed by his occasional triumph. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it is hampered more by its form, with moments unsuited to the form and moments where he manages to transcend it. Certainly, viewing it as a Medieval Romance or epic of that type improves my ability to accept the Scouring. Doesn't help much with the several metric tons of exposition he drops in a couple places for 100 pages at a time in Fellowship, though. Sorry. I have to chalk that up as a mistake in any form.

 

[myrdden]

AFAIC, Peter Jackson's films are more than good enough for me.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I don't see the point in arguing or debating points are so clearly subjective that it proves no point.

 

[WizarDru]

Bombadil and the Wight? Sure, so be it. Scouring? Missed it, but so be it. Warg battle? Stupid, but so be it. No confrontation with Saruman at Orthanc? Unfortunate, but so be it. A 3 minute scene featuring Mumakil surfing by the twinked out elf? Grrrrr, but SO BE IT.

For what it's worth, the extended edition will clearly restore the confrontation at Orthanc (thank goodness). I'm glad to see so much material restored, like the House of Healing, and the romance between Faramir and Eowyn.

Frankly, I'm going through withdrawl. After three solid years of some of the best fantasy films ever made, the prospect of a holiday seaosn without one is pretty rough. But with 50 more minutes of Tolkieny goodness, I guess we can get by.

 

[barsoomcore]

Amal: You said it. Preach on, brother.

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!"

"But I shall smite you if you touch him."

COME ON..................

I don't see the point in arguing or debating points are so clearly subjective that it proves no point.

Because it's fun? I mean, point to a debate anywhere on these boards that ISN'T subjective. Low magic? 2e vs 3e? Spare me.

It's FUN to read other people's ideas and think about and express your own ideas. I LIKE imagining alternate ways to make these movies. I LIKE understanding WHY I was frustrated because it helps me to understand myself a little better. And maybe even other people.

If you don't like doing that, no problem. If you don't see the point in doing that, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But I can tell you the point I see in doing that -- it makes me smarter. And it's fun.

Eowyn got the shaft.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Eowyn got the shaft.

Nah. Eowny's perfectly balanced, its just that the Witchking is overpowered and the DMs a munchkin that doesn't want to lose.

 

[resistor]

I really missed Gandalf turning the Witch-King back at the gates of Minas Tirith. I can't quote it, but it's something like this:

The gate breaks from the final blow of Grond, the battering ram, and Gandalf alone stands before the dark opening (it is still just before dawn). The Witch-King on his mount emerges from the shadows and moves to enter the city. Gandalf drives him back, telling him that no evil has ever set foot within these walls and that he shall not be the first. Dawn breaks, and the Rohirrim charge. The Witch-King, repulsed by Gandalf, is forced to retreat from the gates to rally his army. Gandalf prepares to pursue him, but Pippin arrives and tells him that Denethor is killing himself and Faramir. Gandalf agrees to go save Faramir, but notes that "others will die if he does."

It looks like some approximation of that will go into the Extended Edition, but I still like my mental image more. ;-)

 

[myrdden]

It's FUN to read other people's ideas and think about and express your own ideas. I LIKE imagining alternate ways to make these movies. I LIKE understanding WHY I was frustrated because it helps me to understand myself a little better. And maybe even other people.

If you don't like doing that, no problem. If you don't see the point in doing that, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But I can tell you the point I see in doing that -- it makes me smarter. And it's fun.

Fair point. However, I keep seeing ther SAME points being re-hashed over and over again without anything new being added (same with Star Wars posts too so I guess I really shouldn't be surprised). The SAME issues regarding how the book wasn't followed are countered with the SAME reasons why the change was necessary.

And although I enjoy talking about whatI liked and disliked in the film, I don't see where this is fun anymore.

Perhaps it should be asked instead, "If you were to re-edit the movie, what would you change?". I think that would be a more interesting avenue.

 

[barsoomcore]

Yeah, people get all wound up and indignant about stuff like this, which leads to that sort of parrotting of the same things over and over again.

Being able to detach one's ego from one's ideas is very very important.

 

[Onos T'oolan]

But my problem with the scene isn't narrative - what needed to happen in order to propel the story forward happened. My problem is in terms of directoral emphasis: After all, this is the Witch King of Angmar...

Thank you Amal Shukup - you have made my day

<weeping>[weeping]That such true words of power could come from a fellow Torontonian is more than I could ever have hoped for ..[/weeping]
</weeping>