*Grumble* I'm supposed to be good at DMing!

[PeterMikelsons]

Most of these combatants had 2 attacks and even though I was very cavalier about determining their bonuses and damage, this took a lot of time. In just a couple of rounds, I found that the players were losing interest and were thumbing through books and holding side conversations with each other. This of course further contributed to the problem because when their turns came up they had a less than perfect grasp of the current situation and it took longer for them to decide their own actions.

I think all of us as DMs at some time have made the mistake of what I call "playing with yourself": having NPCs fight NPCs while the players watch. You must speed up those attacks, making them faster and faster, until you get the players' attentions back. You can start with rolling d20s and actually reading them and trying to decide a reasonable result based on the roll, and if that's too slow, to rolling a handful of dice and just getting a general impression (which has the side benefit of sounding cool). Then move to skipping the dice and just winging it for each attack. If even that's too slow, just wing the entire round. Go across your miniatures map and move and remove random figures, then ask the next player in initiative for her action.

(What may be worse is "talking to yourself": having an NPC have a conversation with an NPC while the players watch - you have to be a truly great actor for you to not feel insane or for the players to not get bored.)

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

The epic, mass combat does not work from a player, level because there is just way too much going on with too many NPCs. It is best, from my experience, to roll only where needed. As a DM, the key is to be descriptive and having a mental idea of what is going to happen (if force x is a bit too powerful for group y then group y will be overwhelmed in x rounds unless the players intervene).
Concentrating on the cinematic with isolated, important combats works spectacularly! (check out sagiro's story hour when the PCs were involved in stopping an army invasion or the last book in the witchfire trilogy for how to do this effectively)

 

[dreaded_beast]

You've given me lots of great advice in the past Rel, so let me take a stab at this.

This is what a former DM of mine did when the battles were "epic" or consisted of a large number of combatants: he focused on what the PCs were doing and had everything else as background action.

For example, the PCs would probably stick together on 1 side of the pyramid. The DM would focus on what was going on our side and keep what was happening on the other sides in the background or secret. Once the PCs reached the top, we would discover how everyone else faired on the other sides. This way, there woud presumably be less for the DM to keep track of.

I'm not sure how feasible that tactic would be based on your encounter description, if it would be even possible to have background combatants. Plus, I'm not really sure what the PC's plan was, so maybe this wouldn't be possible as a result.

The encounter sounded like fun though and I have yet to play in a game where we had a chance to "visit" the planes.

 

[BSF]

Hey Rel! I'm sorry to hear that you weren't happy with your DM'ing that night. The bits and pieces of your game that I am aware of always sound pretty darn good. So, my first piece of advice is the same as a lot of people here. Chalk it up to an off night.

As for running battles like that in the future, I think you might have an easier time with it. In this particular case, your PC's were trying to resuce the Orcs. You tried to keep it all above board by rolling it all out. That way, the PC's could save as many as possible, and any casualties were "legitimate".

In the future, you can change your DMing tactics a little because the situation will likely be different. For huge battles, there are many ways you can run it. I've looked at some of the mass combat rules and they are pretty good, but I soon realized that it would still be a bit too slow for the pacing I wanted to run. So, I took the same attitude that I take when designing the huge plots of the BBEG's.

Namely, I know what the BBEG will do _if_ the PC's don't force a change of plans. This is the BBEG's plan for world domination. At any point, the PC's will foil the cunning plan, the BBEG will regroup and adjust, the PC's will foil the adjusted plan. This generally repeats until you have the showdown and only one side is likely to walk away.

When armies clash, you can look at it and say to yourself "This side is going to win." You can then plan out what will happen, if the PC's don't get involved. This allows you to keep the focus on the PC's. To the left and to the right, the battle is going as you envisioned it. But, where the PC's are is that ripple that may eventually spread out and turn the tide. Roll the dice for what is happening around the PC's. Describe the rest of the battle around them every round or two. If the PC's are doing well, adjust the battle to reflect that they are helping rally the troops, so to speak. If the PC's are doing poorly, maybe people around them are losing heart. If you are in doubt, roll a few opposed dice for the NPC's. Just don't get bogged down in the details of each combatant. You can narrate the pacing better, you can reflect the impact the PC's are having on the battle, and you keep the spotlight on the guys at the table.