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GSL FAQ up

phloog said:
3) the document is revocable, and
4) WOTC is clearly trying to move away from Open (insert your definition here) gaming

Personally, I think 3 & 4 are going to bite Wizards in the end more than they (or anyone else around here) thinks that they are. Some folks seem to be looking at this as Wizards trying to "crush" the open game idea - that's frankly impossible. It can't happen - it's too late. They can't put the genie back into the bottle and, what's more, when Ryan Dancey proposed the whole thing 10 years ago he KNEW that they'd never be able to put it back into the bottle. If they really think they can do it they're kidding themselves.

However - by making the GSL revocable what they ARE going to end up doing is fracturing the market far more than it currently is. There is a strong incentive for NOT switching your game line over to the new edition - because once you do you're at the mercy of Wizards decisions on edition releases. If you're making D&D adventures and campaign settings this is probably fine for the next five or so years - but I'd hate to have to make the call on whether or not to put out a new campaign setting when we start getting into "new edition" speculation territory, which will be anytime after the first five or so years unless Wizards specifically decides to share its new edition plans with the 3rd party publishers, and I tend to doubt that that will be coming on the horizon anytime soon.

And meanwhile there is now zero incentive to put your new game out using 4e mechanics. Some really good non-D&D games were spun off from 3e - Spycraft and Mutants and Masterminds both immediately come to mind. Regardless of what the d20 GSL looks like if it is revocable there is zero incentive for anyone to publish a new game with those mechanics - better to come up with your own mechanics so that you don't have to worry about revocation. Even sticking with OGL 3e mechanics loses its strong incentive - the reason to do that in the past was to maintain a certain level of compatibility with the current edition of D&D to draw on that pool of potential buyers. You may be able to do that to some extent by sticking with 3e OGL mechanics (the basic roll a d20 and add a number mechanic is still there, after all), but the level of compatibility is going to be less than it used to be, making the incentive much, much weaker than it is now.

And this is where Wizards is making, IMO, an error. Those games weren't stealing customers from Wizards - they were keeping customers playing D&D-like games. If your sessions are bouncing between d20-based games you're going to move back into regular D&D play pretty easily once the inevitable thirst for dungeon crawling rears its head again. If you've moved off to play a modern game in GURPS or Savage Worlds or some non-d20 system, you start to think about how you might do your fantasy game in those systems instead and now Wizards loses some customers for the longer term. This is what happened in the 90s when TSR was busily non-innovating and threatening to sue the pants off any fan website posting any D&D material - many of us started moving our fantasy campaigns to different systems because we were playing those systems more than we were D&D.

And sure, Mutants and Masterminds and Spycraft and other d20-based game systems will probably stay out there, but the less they are like the current edition of D&D the less "pull" they have on players to come back to D&D. Heck they might even encourage players to pull out their 3.5 edition books when they want a dungeon crawl instead of going 4e.

So personally that's where I think the error is - and who it's going to hurt the most. Wizards is going to get bit by this more than anyone else is because Wizards CAN'T fulfill all of the gaming needs of all players at all times. Under the old licensing scheme they could at least keep those players in a "D&D orbit" when they decided to shelve their D&D games and play something else. With this one they're not going to have that. Which ultimately may be good for innovation in the market for game mechanics, but is probably not the intent that Wizards has by "closing up" their license. Meanwhile I think most of the 3rd party companies will do fine with this licensing schema - provided they recognize that putting all of their eggs into the 4e basket probably isn't the best move unless they JUST want to be a 3rd party D&D publisher. Nothing wrong with that - there's obviously a market for it - but if you want to put out your own game lines you're going to want to keep your games as far from the 4e GSL as possible, I would think.
 

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Jer said:
And meanwhile there is now zero incentive to put your new game out using 4e mechanics.
Zero incentive? Being able to advertise compatibility with the industry's leading game is no incentive at all? People didn't need the d20STL to publish new games in the past, and yet they used it anyway, because of the perceived benefit.

I understand the point you're trying to make. And while the revocability of the GSL reduces the incentive to use it (compared to a hypothetical GSL with no such feature), to claim the incentive is zero is hyperbole.
 


Green Knight said:
No it's not. You're just blowing it up to be larger then it actually is.

One person made a mistake in saying it was company by company. That's it. Is it so incomprehensible that someone got it wrong? Just look at how many people disagree over rules in game books. It isn't altogether inconceivable that someone misread or misheard something about the GSL and reported it incorrectly to Clark. There's nothing "frightening" about that. It's just simple human error. And for people to take what was just an honest mistake and blow it up into something nefarious is absolutely ridiculous.

I dont think either your position or the one you are responding to is correct. From my perspective (and this is just my perspective), the person who made the mistake (or misspoke or I misunderstood or whatever, or maybe was correct and that view has now been changed) was not just one person. It seems clear there was a (small) camp at Wizards that shared that interpretation. But it is not this evil "were out to kill open gaming" that the poster you were responding to suggests, either. Its somewhere in the middle of that. Are there camps at Wizards that are anti-open gaming? Yes, I believe there are. Are there camps that are very pro open gaming? Yes, that is obvious and that voice is still carrying the day. Frankly, it would be crazy to believe that there wouldnt be different points of view on an issue as big as this.

I do agree with you that there is nothing nefarious going on at Wizards. Far from it, in fact.

For goodness sake, we're about to have a public license to use D&D content and the name and some version of the logo--for free. THAT didnt even happen back in the golden days of gaming. Is it the OGL? No. But in some ways it is better. This is still a very very significant move and one that should be applauded.
 

Jer said:
However - by making the GSL revocable what they ARE going to end up doing is fracturing the market far more than it currently is. There is a strong incentive for NOT switching your game line over to the new edition - because once you do you're at the mercy of Wizards decisions on edition releases. If you're making D&D adventures and campaign settings this is probably fine for the next five or so years - but I'd hate to have to make the call on whether or not to put out a new campaign setting when we start getting into "new edition" speculation territory, which will be anytime after the first five or so years unless Wizards specifically decides to share its new edition plans with the 3rd party publishers, and I tend to doubt that that will be coming on the horizon anytime soon.

Getting to republish the same campaign setting 4 or 5 times and sell it again to the same people with new mechanics behind it (all while another company is taking the heat for being the money-grabbing edition whores) is the opposite of a disincentive.

EDIT - I think I misunderstood. If you're talking about separate games like M&M, my comments may not apply.
 
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Green Knight said:
After all this, I feel really sorry for the poor guy who Clark talked to. The guy made a mistake, and now his employers are being villified for his miscommunication. Poor guy's probably being taken to the woodshed as we speak. :(

I doubt "that person" is getting into any trouble :)

Clark
 

Piratecat said:
My understanding is that it absolutely does. So Necromancer can't offer 3e ToH pdfs if they have a 4e ToH, and Goodman would have to make a 4e line of modules that aren't in the DCC line.

Hi,

I'm wondering about that. My (laymans) understanding of product line doesn't seem to match the technical definition that is relevant for the license.

The ToH may be a special case, and not a good example, because wasn't there a special license that was created specifically for ToH?

Setting that aside, if ToH were to be split into product identity, which is wholly owned by Necromancer and presumably free of entangling restrictions, and the 3/3.5E open content, and then the product identity alone were put into a 4E product, with Necromancer creating a new "4E" product line and placing the new product in this "4E" product line, will that satisfy the conditions of the new GSL? That may seem to be avoiding the intent of the restrictions contained by the GSL, but I don't think that matters as much as the actual technical / legal requirements of the GSL.
 

Fifth Element said:
Zero incentive? Being able to advertise compatibility with the industry's leading game is no incentive at all? People didn't need the d20STL to publish new games in the past, and yet they used it anyway, because of the perceived benefit.

You're right - I misspoke. Not zero incentive, there's actually a negative incentive to put out a new game with the d20 GSL IF it includes a revocation clause. Your game falls to the mercy of Wizards publishing calendar as well as to the whim of whether the next edition will have a similar GSL or not. With the OGL/d20STL you have the option of continuing your game on without the d20 trademark. If the d20 GSL has a revocation clause you'd be a fool to put out a new game line under it, unless you plan your game's lifespan to be less than 4e D&D's lifespan. D&D supplements are a completely different story - in fact the new D&D GSL looks like you'll actually be able to use the D&D brand. Which is a good thing for 3rd party publishers. But putting out a new "Mutants & Masterminds" or Spycraft when another company has the revocation clause on the mechanics? Silly. Even if you can "advertise compatibility" with D&D.

Fifth Element said:
I understand the point you're trying to make. And while the revocability of the GSL reduces the incentive to use it (compared to a hypothetical GSL with no such feature), to claim the incentive is zero is hyperbole.

Not compared to a "hypothetical GSL" at all - compared to the actual d20 STL and OGL that have been in effect for the last 8 years. The OGL and d20 STL gave publishers strong incentive to take the d20 mechanics and play with them for their own game lines. You got the benefit of having something compatible with D&D AND you didn't have to give up your control over your publishing schedule. That was a strong incentive to put your game out using OGL mechanics. If the new d20 GSL is revocable like the D&D GSL is (and if it isn't that changes things), then the incentive for putting out new games using it is not only going to be severely reduced, you actually have a very strong incentive NOT to do it.

Again, I'm speaking specifically about new games, not 3rd party D&D supplements. For those the benefit is all about putting out D&D compatible products, and the benefit of having a non-revocable license is negligible - if you're in the business of putting out D&D supplements you probably want to keep with the current version of D&D anyway, and if they "force" you to upgrade to the next edition each time they're probably only "forcing" you to do something you would do anyway. If you've invested heavily into your own new game separate from the D&D brand, however, the cost of a revoked license is going to be much more of a burden.

(My hope is that the D&D GSL will be revocable while the d20 GSL will not - honestly that would be the best route for Wizards to take IMO as it would give them the most control over the 3rd party products for their own D&D brand while simultaneously allowing publishers the freedom to do their own thing with the d20 system as a whole. Which, as I said, keeps players in the "D&D orbit" instead of pushing them out to new systems and other publishers. I doubt that this will be the case, but I do think that it would be the best of both worlds for Wizards.)
 

Jer said:
If the new d20 GSL is revocable like the D&D GSL is (and if it isn't that changes things), then the incentive for putting out new games using it is not only going to be severely reduced, you actually have a very strong incentive NOT to do it.
True, but then you have to weigh this disincentive against the incentive that comes with the GSL (being able to use a D&D logo, etc). If you believe the positives outweigh the negatives, then it makes sense to use the GSL.

And you have to remember that the positives are immediate and real, while the negative you mention (revocation) is only a possibility, not guaranteed to happen.
 

Jer said:
Not compared to a "hypothetical GSL" at all - compared to the actual d20 STL and OGL that have been in effect for the last 8 years.
The d20STL is being revoked, so it doesn't enter into the discussion for future products. And the OGL does not allow for direct compatibility language, or the use of a recognizable logo, so it does not have the same benefits as the GSL. So you have to weigh these benefits that the OGL cannot give you against the potential negatives of the more-restrictive GSL.
 

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