GSL: Necromancer Games SOL?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Baseless speculation -- I think WOTC was blindsided by the "Use any version" clause of the OGL, quickly decided to just call it a new license to get around THAT...

Baseless speculation: Sadly, I had the same flabbergasting thought.

 

[mhensley]

My question is: if wotc continues to drag their feet on the license, at what point does it become useless because it's too late to do anything with it? Wasn't Necromancer and the others already complaining they didn't have enough time to get books done by Gencon? And that was when they thought they would get the license in January. :\

 

[GMSkarka]

What's the point of forking over 5k to be an early adopter if you don't have the time get a quality product out in time for Gen Con?

That's rapidly becoming the big question (or the "$5,000 Question", actually). Speaking generally, to release print product in time for GenCon, it has to be finalized and sent to the printer by mid-June at the latest (unless you want to risk the "having it shipped to the convention" nightmare).

As of right now, that gives you a total of about 90 days to:

• Get the license from WOTC, and make your decision.
• Send WOTC the $5K
• Wait for delivery of the core rules manuscripts
• Read the rules thoroughly, to get a full understanding of them
• Write the product
• Playtest the product
• Make revisions based on playtest
• Commission artwork, and give time for the artists to complete their work
• Give the text its final editing pass
• Lay out the product with art
• Package for prepress and sent to the printer

Some of the above can be done in advance of getting the GSL and the rules, but you're partially committing yourself at that point.

Plus, you also need to solicit distribtion, which, for products releasing in August, needs to be done in the next month or so.

So, yeah. YIKES.

 

[kenmarable]

Plus, you also need to solicit distribtion, which, for products releasing in August, needs to be done in the next month or so.

Also, for the book trade, I believe the solicitation window has already passed. So, at this point,
you can only really market your products as 4e to the hobby market. For the companies that also sell in the major book chains (Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc.), that ship has already sailed which is understandably a frustrating window to miss.

 

[Orcus]

By the way, just for clarification, I dont have any problem with Chris using ToH 4E as an example. It is a GREAT example. As he says, if the new GSL restricts prior OGC use then Tome 4E is going to have some problems. I think it is a great topic for discussion and I think he is right on.

Chris, I want to make sure if you are reading that I agree with you about this issue and dont have any issue with you using it for discussion

Of course, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, it took more than just the OGL to make Tome1 in the first place. Cause, remember, there is nothing in the original OGL that let me do Tome1. So if the new GSL doesnt let me make Tome 4E, I'll have to do what I did for Tome1, go to WotC and see if they will let me do it. They did for the original Tome of Horrors.

But please remember that the issue of whether or not I am SOL is not purely based on what is or is not in the GSL.

My hope is that even if WotC's new GSL would not, on its face, allow the creation of Tome 4E that they would do for me now what they did for me before--allow me to make monsters for their game that they dont have any intention of doing. I think it is very clear that Necro has been a great caretaker of their content and that we have scrupulously honored our commitment to respect, protect and properly credit the content we were allowed to use. I also think it is abundantly clear that the ToH monsters we made did not in any way hurt or hinder WotC mosnter books. In fact, when I did the ToH I submitted a list of monsters I wanted to do to WotC and they told me what ones to cut from the list because they were doing them in upcoming books and I said fine. I worked closely with them and it was all great. I am hopeful that the GSL will permit me to use the OGC from Tome1, but if not I intend to approach WotC in the same friendly way I have always dealt with them and ask if I can use that content with permission. And this time I'll have more than just my good name and good rep, I'll have the Tome of Horrors to point to so taht they can see they have nothing to worry about. We've been good caretakers before and will again.

But its up to them. Not me. So we will see.

 

[Orcus]

Speaking generally, to release print product in time for GenCon, it has to be finalized and sent to the printer by mid-June at the latest (unless you want to risk the "having it shipped to the convention" nightmare). [[cut]] Plus, you also need to solicit distribtion, which, for products releasing in August, needs to be done in the next month or so.

So, yeah. YIKES.

Tell it, brother. Yikes is right.

 

[Orcus]

One other problem--the longer they delay the GSL and the longer they delay this process, the less value there is to that "window" of publication for 08, since the longer this takes the less chance anyone could actually put out product in 08. Which, as a result, means the less incentive for publishers to fork over $5000 for advanced copies of the rules. When it looked like we were getting stuff end of January, that was tight but still possible. Every passing day is making it less and less enticing, which seems strange to me. I really thought WotC would have done the GSL by now.

Good thing my Advanced Player's Guide is all written. Of course, I cant review any of it...but its done. Art notes too. Its in the pipeline and art notes go to production this coming week. That one should make it. I dont think there are many other people with written 4E content ready to go aside from my APG. I may be wrong. Someone may be sitting on something. Hard to say. But then, of course, the new GSL may mess that product up for me We'll just have to see...

Hey, WotC, if you are reading this--I WILL HELP YOU WITH THE GSL IF YOU NEED IT. FOR FREE. WHATEVER YOU NEED. WE NEED THIS THING DONE. LET ME HELP YOU. I'LL READ DRAFTS, WHATEVER. I'LL ADVISE YOU ON HOW IT WILL ALL WORK IN THE REAL WORLD WITH THIRD PARTY PUBLISHERS. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU NEED, BUT WHATEVER IT IS PLEASE EMAIL ME AND USE ME IN WHATEVER WAY YOU NEED.

I love open gaming, in whatever its incarnation. I want to help. All this reminds me of the heady days of the OGL lists run by Ryan Dancey back in the day. Man, that was fun.

 

[AZRogue]

One other problem--the longer they delay the GSL and the longer they delay this process, the less value there is to that "window" of publication for 08, since the longer this takes the less chance anyone could actually put out product in 08. Which, as a result, means the less incentive for publishers to fork over $5000 for advanced copies of the rules. When it looked like we were getting stuff end of January, that was tight but still possible. Every passing day is making it less and less enticing, which seems strange to me. I really thought WotC would have done the GSL by now.

Good thing my Advanced Player's Guide is all written. Of course, I cant review any of it...but its done. Art notes too. Its in the pipeline and art notes go to production this coming week. That one should make it. I dont think there are many other people with written 4E content ready to go aside from my APG. I may be wrong. Someone may be sitting on something. Hard to say. But then, of course, the new GSL may mess that product up for me We'll just have to see...

Hey, WotC, if you are reading this--I WILL HELP YOU WITH THE GSL IF YOU NEED IT. FOR FREE. WHATEVER YOU NEED. WE NEED THIS THING DONE. LET ME HELP YOU. I'LL READ DRAFTS, WHATEVER. I'LL ADVISE YOU ON HOW IT WILL ALL WORK IN THE REAL WORLD WITH THIRD PARTY PUBLISHERS. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU NEED, BUT WHATEVER IT IS PLEASE EMAIL ME AND USE ME IN WHATEVER WAY YOU NEED.

I love open gaming, in whatever its incarnation. I want to help. All this reminds me of the heady days of the OGL lists run by Ryan Dancey back in the day. Man, that was fun.

I wish you much luck, my friend. The industry needs people like you.

 

[pemerton]

I don't think stealing someone else's work, rewording it, and slapping your own name on it is as easy as you think.

Agreed.

trademark extends as long as the company in question continues to pay for it.

I think you might be confusing the issue of registration with the issue of whether or not a trademark exist per se.

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I understand it, when it comes to IP laws and the OGL, we're looking at three things: patent, copyright and trademark.

<snip>

So if I just took the 4e core books, rewrote the whole thing (no reusing quotes, tables, etc), and snipped out those few trademarked monsters and names, I could publish it and the WotC lawyers would have a hell of a time stopping me.

As I posted in the other thread where this came up, I suspect that you are overly optimistic here.

In particular, I think (i) there may well be issues of copyright violations, and (ii) there may well be issues of passing off (roughly, as I understand it, the civil wrong of engaging in trade in a manner that is parasitic on someone else's goodwill and trade identity).

There are IP lawyers who paste on these boards from time to time who would be able to express a more definite view.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It reads like a book that a 15-year-old wrote and his mom edited.

And that's not a good thing.

For the record, my mom is as tough of an editor as any professional I've ever worked with. She pulls fewer punches, too.