Guardians - Welcome to the Wild Wild West (FULL)
- Thread starter Gideon
- Start date
Super Girl
First Post
If this is representative of the challenges for the rest of the game, count me out. This smacks of a Killer DM that must kill the players to have their fun. Our defense powers are useless against any attack greater then +2, and we get sent up against a Powersuit and 5 uberbots that each fire off multiple area attacks that are all stronger then the strongest defensive power we can possibly have.
Its amazing a total of 6 Stun hits, 1 Lethal hit, 2 Stunneds, 2 unconscious, 1 disabled, all accomplished in a single round.
Its amazing a total of 6 Stun hits, 1 Lethal hit, 2 Stunneds, 2 unconscious, 1 disabled, all accomplished in a single round.
Calinon
First Post
Wow, missed a lot being out for the day.
I just want to say, especially if you are feeling ticked off about what happened, that I know, as a fellow GM of M&M, in this game world, using these lethality rules, that Gideon isn't in any way trying to tick you off or make you feel like leaving the game! Buck up, heroes! That being said, I want my turn to complain dangit!
I try not to get upset about getting whapped, but after reading the post for an hour, and the posts made here for an hour, I have to agree with Supergirl that the encounter is poorly designed and very disheartening. This is not a test or display of our powers. This isn't even a challenge nor is there a chance to really be heroic; it's a beat down. So I can understand a bit of heat coming your way. Keep the following things in mind:
It's important, as players, to know if a no-win scenario is upcoming, or we tend to get disheartened rather fast. It's also important to know that there won't be 'no win' situations brought up where we are actually able to die. If this encounter happened outside VR, it'd be game over for a lot of us. It is also important for what happens to have a reason, and I truly missed the reason for our display of powers excercise to be turned by the Colonel into a slaughter. Remember, we can die if we do something stupid or have a horrible string of bad luck; that we can all live with, and you warned us of it. But we shouldn't just be killed because we can be killed. Then we enter the 'no fun zone.' Booo for no fun zone!
As you said, first battle run, and you might make mistakes. This might have been your plan too, so if that's the case, that's fine and dandy, but I know Longhorn will want a reason for that being done to us, and a darn good one. Personally, I think you may have underestimated the effect a ton of area attacks would have on the group. It's easy enough to fix with only one combat post.
As for the other stuff:
Karma is getting unfortunately hosed with the damage saves at the moment. She's effectively spent an extra two pp/rank for amazing save (with nifty extras attached, but that is beside the point). In the case of absorbtion, her power should simply work as it says, and if the damage is drained to zero or below, she suffers no damage. This is my oh so clever analysis (isn't it clever?):
Brano can't do anything but charge towards her on his next turn.
My re-rolled reflex save was 13, still a failure, but important to point out. Also, the only benefit of deflecting an area attack is the gaining of a reflex save. Well, until I get reflection!
I like to see DC's. Without them, I don't know if, after I've been shot, I need to adjust my hero point useage. I like to see numbers for initiatives. I can't necessarily delay long enough to get where I want. I don't know if refocussing will give me an advantage.
And this is rather vital... being VR, does hero point expenditure even count towards our totals? This is very important as to how hard we train. I actually had assumed they would count inside VR (ie. I have 4 hero points in a scenario) but wouldn't lower my 'real' hero point total. If they do count as 'real' hero points spent, I do not want to use any hero points in VR for any reason whatsoever as that will actually hurt my chances at survival or doing cool and heroic things.
Anyway, I'm going to bed and will check back tomorrow. Not like I have anything to do in the upcoming week of battle as it stands now!
I just want to say, especially if you are feeling ticked off about what happened, that I know, as a fellow GM of M&M, in this game world, using these lethality rules, that Gideon isn't in any way trying to tick you off or make you feel like leaving the game! Buck up, heroes! That being said, I want my turn to complain dangit!
I try not to get upset about getting whapped, but after reading the post for an hour, and the posts made here for an hour, I have to agree with Supergirl that the encounter is poorly designed and very disheartening. This is not a test or display of our powers. This isn't even a challenge nor is there a chance to really be heroic; it's a beat down. So I can understand a bit of heat coming your way. Keep the following things in mind:
They all have area attacks pretty much makes rolling hit rolls for them unimportant. Area attacks are also very hard to defend against and it is unlikely you'd want all of us to have area attacks and use them in this way. For the players, they negates the effect of superspeed in making damage saves (great once in a while), completely negates deflection (great once in a while) and forces a lot of saves that eventually will be failed and badly. They also have multifire... with penalties for that and range that are able to be effectively ignored.
The range we started at makes us all sitting ducks for this. There is literally no way for people without significant movement powers from getting trashed.
The folks in the 'unmoved back row' actually need to make another two reflex and damage saves unless they are somehow more than 30 feet apart. Heck, Longhorn has to make another 4 reflex (now a -5) and damage saves since she was thirty feet from them, but with a 30 foot knockback should now be lying among them. I didn't want to mention this, but it does further illustrate a problem with the scenario.
Now, next round I ccould spend a hero point to regain consciousness (DC10 constitution check). I can move, but can't take strenuous actions without using another hero point which I can't do until the following round. I can guarantee, however, that based on the scenario, there is no way I will do this. The robots should be sending in another full round of multi-shotting area attacks shortly. It is a no win situation. (also see way down for hero point use clarification I need badly)
The range we started at makes us all sitting ducks for this. There is literally no way for people without significant movement powers from getting trashed.
The folks in the 'unmoved back row' actually need to make another two reflex and damage saves unless they are somehow more than 30 feet apart. Heck, Longhorn has to make another 4 reflex (now a -5) and damage saves since she was thirty feet from them, but with a 30 foot knockback should now be lying among them. I didn't want to mention this, but it does further illustrate a problem with the scenario.
Now, next round I ccould spend a hero point to regain consciousness (DC10 constitution check). I can move, but can't take strenuous actions without using another hero point which I can't do until the following round. I can guarantee, however, that based on the scenario, there is no way I will do this. The robots should be sending in another full round of multi-shotting area attacks shortly. It is a no win situation. (also see way down for hero point use clarification I need badly)
It's important, as players, to know if a no-win scenario is upcoming, or we tend to get disheartened rather fast. It's also important to know that there won't be 'no win' situations brought up where we are actually able to die. If this encounter happened outside VR, it'd be game over for a lot of us. It is also important for what happens to have a reason, and I truly missed the reason for our display of powers excercise to be turned by the Colonel into a slaughter. Remember, we can die if we do something stupid or have a horrible string of bad luck; that we can all live with, and you warned us of it. But we shouldn't just be killed because we can be killed. Then we enter the 'no fun zone.' Booo for no fun zone!
As you said, first battle run, and you might make mistakes. This might have been your plan too, so if that's the case, that's fine and dandy, but I know Longhorn will want a reason for that being done to us, and a darn good one. Personally, I think you may have underestimated the effect a ton of area attacks would have on the group. It's easy enough to fix with only one combat post.
As for the other stuff:
Karma is getting unfortunately hosed with the damage saves at the moment. She's effectively spent an extra two pp/rank for amazing save (with nifty extras attached, but that is beside the point). In the case of absorbtion, her power should simply work as it says, and if the damage is drained to zero or below, she suffers no damage. This is my oh so clever analysis (isn't it clever?):
Amazing Save (DMG) costs 1 pp. It is continuous and can be nullified/drained/etc. It adds right on to the damage save.
Protection costs 2 pp. It is permanent and cannot be nullified/drained/etc. It adds right on to the damage save.
Absorbtion costs 3 pp. It is continuous and can be nullified/drained/etc. It should reduce the power of the incoming attack, potentially eliminating it.
Protection costs 2 pp. It is permanent and cannot be nullified/drained/etc. It adds right on to the damage save.
Absorbtion costs 3 pp. It is continuous and can be nullified/drained/etc. It should reduce the power of the incoming attack, potentially eliminating it.
Brano can't do anything but charge towards her on his next turn.
My re-rolled reflex save was 13, still a failure, but important to point out. Also, the only benefit of deflecting an area attack is the gaining of a reflex save. Well, until I get reflection!
I like to see DC's. Without them, I don't know if, after I've been shot, I need to adjust my hero point useage. I like to see numbers for initiatives. I can't necessarily delay long enough to get where I want. I don't know if refocussing will give me an advantage.
And this is rather vital... being VR, does hero point expenditure even count towards our totals? This is very important as to how hard we train. I actually had assumed they would count inside VR (ie. I have 4 hero points in a scenario) but wouldn't lower my 'real' hero point total. If they do count as 'real' hero points spent, I do not want to use any hero points in VR for any reason whatsoever as that will actually hurt my chances at survival or doing cool and heroic things.
Anyway, I'm going to bed and will check back tomorrow. Not like I have anything to do in the upcoming week of battle as it stands now!
Gideon
First Post
It is apparent that I misjudged the scenario. I'll deal with the specific rules and troubles tomorrow when I am more lucid, it is 5:41 in the morning, but I want to issue a general apology. I did not realize the full effect of rapid fire with area attacks. This scenario seems to be 'PC's are screwed' set-up. I had mistakenly assumed that the PL 6 robots would not be as destructive as they have shown themselves to be. I am sorry if you feel trapped, entered into the 'no fun zone', or want to leave the game.
I had not made it clear in the original post that I am a newbie GM in the M&M system and haven't learned the tricks of the system. If you feel you won't enjoy the game because of that fact then I am sorry that you have wasted some of your time over the last week.
Goodnight.
I had not made it clear in the original post that I am a newbie GM in the M&M system and haven't learned the tricks of the system. If you feel you won't enjoy the game because of that fact then I am sorry that you have wasted some of your time over the last week.
Goodnight.
Synchronicity
First Post
Gideon, I'm just clocking in to say that I'm going to hang onto this game like a dog with a big frickin' bone. I'm really enjoying it to date - I admit that the first round of combat made me blink a bit, but I've enjoyed everything else in the game so far. There's always going to be problems when you're new to GMing a system - some things are just stronger in play than they look on paper. (For me, it was dinosaurs. But that's another story. 
) Also, it's important to note that none of our group are combat optimised. None of us have maxxxxed saves - most of us are on about the equivalent of a +10 damage save, when at our level we could have a +15 if we went all out with stat of 20, Toughness, etcetera. That means against combat optimised opponents (and heck, these things are combat droids, I doubt they're optimised to do laundry), we're going to have a harder time of it than if we were +7 combat wombats of mighty death (tm).
In short, I'm more than willing to stick with this game as I'm really enjoying it, and the only way you get to find out something's too strong or just isn't going to work is by trying it out.
Synch.
[EDIT: May as well fit everything into 1 post] Tyrlaan - Chris moved diagonally (well, in a curve, but that's really hard to calculate) away from the group and stopped when he was approximately 40ft from a robot. Since we started 100ft away, he's now about 70ft from the group, as diagonal movement means he'll have to travel slightly further to get with 40ft of the robots. (plus any knockback from the robots attacks- I don't know where that would put him.)
) Also, it's important to note that none of our group are combat optimised. None of us have maxxxxed saves - most of us are on about the equivalent of a +10 damage save, when at our level we could have a +15 if we went all out with stat of 20, Toughness, etcetera. That means against combat optimised opponents (and heck, these things are combat droids, I doubt they're optimised to do laundry), we're going to have a harder time of it than if we were +7 combat wombats of mighty death (tm).In short, I'm more than willing to stick with this game as I'm really enjoying it, and the only way you get to find out something's too strong or just isn't going to work is by trying it out.
Synch.
[EDIT: May as well fit everything into 1 post] Tyrlaan - Chris moved diagonally (well, in a curve, but that's really hard to calculate) away from the group and stopped when he was approximately 40ft from a robot. Since we started 100ft away, he's now about 70ft from the group, as diagonal movement means he'll have to travel slightly further to get with 40ft of the robots. (plus any knockback from the robots attacks- I don't know where that would put him.)
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Keia
I aim to misbehave
To chip in on Supergirl's power.
I think the absorption comes off the damage first, then the damage save, so most likely she is unharmed. However, in this instance, her re-direct power actually redirects to something that isn't there anymore - the grenade.
The robot shot the grenade the grenade exploded, doing damage. The redirect targets what gave the damage - the now destroyed grenade.
On anything else (including an NPC with Area attack) the power would redirect some of it back to the attacker. This is just an instance where the power does work, just not as anticipated. That's what training sessions are for!!
Keia
I think the absorption comes off the damage first, then the damage save, so most likely she is unharmed. However, in this instance, her re-direct power actually redirects to something that isn't there anymore - the grenade.
The robot shot the grenade the grenade exploded, doing damage. The redirect targets what gave the damage - the now destroyed grenade.
On anything else (including an NPC with Area attack) the power would redirect some of it back to the attacker. This is just an instance where the power does work, just not as anticipated. That's what training sessions are for!!
Keia
Super Girl
First Post
just to illustrate how powerful area attacks are especially when our max defensive power is +2, (for the bots +0 max since they are PL6) I will illustrate how easy it is to end this battle using a single character's turn.
Extraordinary Effort: Burn 3 HP, burn Fatigue, burn Exhausted, burn Unconscious
gets me 6 EE effects, but uses up all my Hero Points and Knocks me out.
1st EE: Allow me to fire a blast without being hit first
2nd EE: Multifire Extra
3rd EE: Area
4th&5th: Boost the attack to +12
6th: Selective
Robots and SGT Brano would all have to make 2 DC 37 damage saves regardless of me hitting or not. Even if they rolled 20s, every single one of them would go down. Thats how powerful area attacks are, they can take down multiple people at once with out any difficulties. We all got throttled because everyone but Phoenix and Lightspeed took 2 area blasts, when a single area blast is enough to take any one of us down to unconscious. As evidenced by the people who went down in 1 hit.
Extraordinary Effort: Burn 3 HP, burn Fatigue, burn Exhausted, burn Unconscious
gets me 6 EE effects, but uses up all my Hero Points and Knocks me out.
1st EE: Allow me to fire a blast without being hit first
2nd EE: Multifire Extra
3rd EE: Area
4th&5th: Boost the attack to +12
6th: Selective
Robots and SGT Brano would all have to make 2 DC 37 damage saves regardless of me hitting or not. Even if they rolled 20s, every single one of them would go down. Thats how powerful area attacks are, they can take down multiple people at once with out any difficulties. We all got throttled because everyone but Phoenix and Lightspeed took 2 area blasts, when a single area blast is enough to take any one of us down to unconscious. As evidenced by the people who went down in 1 hit.
Gideon
First Post
I'm back and armed with 6 hours of sleep and a managable headache. Remember everybody, always drink water before you go to bed. Now, on with the show.
I envision Karma's power working more like reflection than vodoo doll. If an enemy was to shoot at Karma with an energy blast it would be reflected back to him because he caused the damage. On an area attack Karma wouldn't bounce the shot back at the shooter because she wasn't the target. Karma's absorption powers would soak up the damage, I'll edit that in a minute (and yes, that was very clever).
HP use will not count in VR. Your charachters will not be wounded once they exit the VR chamber either. I'll post DC's for attacks and things after the first come up in the game. I'll also list initiatives.
Approx positions from Carbon:
Aztec - 35' NW
Banjax - 80 ft NW
Carbon - You are you and thats all the you you can get
Karma - 1 right arm's reach away
Leprechaun - 2 right arm reaches away
Lightspeed - 55' NE
Longhorn - at your feet
Phoenix - 40' above Lightspeed's head
Tornado - 40' above your head and about 6' to the right
Whisper - 8' to your right
In other news, Great Lemure will not be joining us as his schedule is just too packed.
I envision Karma's power working more like reflection than vodoo doll. If an enemy was to shoot at Karma with an energy blast it would be reflected back to him because he caused the damage. On an area attack Karma wouldn't bounce the shot back at the shooter because she wasn't the target. Karma's absorption powers would soak up the damage, I'll edit that in a minute (and yes, that was very clever).
HP use will not count in VR. Your charachters will not be wounded once they exit the VR chamber either. I'll post DC's for attacks and things after the first come up in the game. I'll also list initiatives.
Approx positions from Carbon:
Aztec - 35' NW
Banjax - 80 ft NW
Carbon - You are you and thats all the you you can get
Karma - 1 right arm's reach away
Leprechaun - 2 right arm reaches away
Lightspeed - 55' NE
Longhorn - at your feet
Phoenix - 40' above Lightspeed's head
Tornado - 40' above your head and about 6' to the right
Whisper - 8' to your right
In other news, Great Lemure will not be joining us as his schedule is just too packed.
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