D&D 5E [GUIDE] I Fought the Law and Won: The Rogue Guide

[vostygg]

In general, if you hold total dice damage constant, one chance to crit yields the same expected added DPR as two chances to crit on weaker attacks. I see at the link that this build relies on constantly applying reckless attack and holding back sneak attack unless you crit. It's only because you're doing that that having the second attack actually buys you something re: crits. But I guess if you have constant advantage, elven accuracy, and a wide enough crit range that you can expect to crit most turns, then it's probably worth it.

I don't think this build works as written though: Elven Accuracy doesn't work with STR-based attacks, and rage only works with STR-based attacks. It may have been based on an obsolete UA wording of EA.

EDIT: Oh, I see that the thread predates the release of Xanathar's and therefore of the official Elven Accuracy feat. So it definitely is based on the UA version.

The numbers I posted do not rely on holding back sneak attack unless you crit, but I did fail to realize that Elven Accuracy does not apply to Strength-based attacks any more! That pretty much derails the efficacy of the build.

 

[vostygg]

That's at least not biased, but I don't think it makes sense to average over levels. For one thing, that assumes that you have the same amount of play time at every level, which isn't really reasonable. For another, the value of one point of damage means something very different at a high level compared to a low one (not to mention the variable value of the control effect and the variable value of a bonus action).

The break-even point for Booming Blade over TWF is actually much higher if you weight the averages based on which levels see the most play, since TWF performs better over all at lower levels, while Booming Blade really starts to take over at the highest levels.

 

[Esker]

The numbers I posted do not rely on holding back sneak attack unless you crit, but I did fail to realize that Elven Accuracy does not apply to Strength-based attacks any more! That pretty much derails the efficacy of the build.

Oh, it's even worse than I thought isn't it? It's not just rage; Reckless Attack requires STR-based attacks too.

If you're not holding back sneak attack, then the extra damage you get from crits is just (to-crit-per-attack) * (total-dice-damage), regardless of the number of attacks you're making (assuming to-crit chance stays constant). If you're relying on the two-weapon fighting style for your base damage you're getting less value from crits, since more of your DPR is coming from static modifiers, which don't benefit from them.

Back of the envelope, suppose you did have a way of generating constant advantage that worked with elven accuracy, and you crit on an 18 or higher. Compare dual-scimitars to single rapier + BB at level 5:

TWF:

Base (1st attack): 1d6 + 4 = 7.5
Base (2nd attack): 1d6 = 3.5
Base to hit (advantage + elven accuracy): 0.936
Crit damage (per attack): 1d6 = 3.5
To-crit (per attack, advantage): 0.386
Sneak attack damage: 3d6 = 10.5
Sneak attack to hit: (1 - 0.064)^2 = 0.996
Sneak attack to crit (w/o holding it back): 0.386 + (0.064) * 0.386 = 0.411

Expected total damage: 0.936 * (7.5 + 3.5) + 2 * 3.5 * 0.386 + 0.996 * 10.5 + 0.411 * 10.5 = 27.8

Booming Blade:

Base Damage: 2d8 + 3d6 + 4 = 25.5
Base to-hit: 0.936
Crit Damage: 2d8 + 3d6 = 19.5
To-Crit: 0.386

Total: 0.936 * 23.5 + 0.386 * 19.5 = 29.5

 

[Yunru]

The break-even point for Booming Blade over TWF is actually much higher if you weight the averages based on which levels see the most play, since TWF performs better over all at lower levels, while Booming Blade really starts to take over at the highest levels.

Ummm... what?
The value I gave was for level 5, which is the start of the most played area. Levels 1-4 are over in almost as many sessions.

BTW: When I add the Dual Wielder feat to the TWF build, the break-even point shifts up to about 52.5%, which is to say that the Booming Blade rider has to trigger at least 52.5% of the time in order for Booming Blade DPR to exceed TWF DPR on average across all levels.

Not even going to touch the hot mess that is averaging across all levels.


Did you add the "insert other use of ASI" for Booming Blade?

 

[vostygg]

Ummm... what?
The value I gave was for level 5, which is the start of the most played area. Levels 1-4 are over in almost as many sessions.

Not even going to touch the hot mess that is averaging across all levels.

Did you add the "insert other use of ASI" for Booming Blade?

I was wondering how long it would take for the infamous EnWorld snark to rear its head! It's why a lot of people I know don't bother with these boards any more.

This whole thing is purely an academic exercise, since there is very little chance you are ever going to get your BB rider damage with high enough frequency to make the DPR for a Booming Blade Swashbuckler equal to that of a TWF Swashbuckler at almost any level, something which you seem unwilling to concede for some reason.

I won't even touch the hot mess that is taking the break-even point at level 5 and applying it across all levels.

Also, please show me which three or four ASIs you would choose in order to raise the Booming Blade DPR above the two or three ASIs still available to the TWF build with Dual Wielder. I'd be more than happy to factor these into the math if you supply them. Is it the magic white room owl familiar that never gets attacked and grants advantage every single round of every single combat?

 

[vostygg]

Oh, it's even worse than I thought isn't it? It's not just rage; Reckless Attack requires STR-based attacks too.

If you're not holding back sneak attack, then the extra damage you get from crits is just (to-crit-per-attack) * (total-dice-damage), regardless of the number of attacks you're making (assuming to-crit chance stays constant). If you're relying on the two-weapon fighting style for your base damage you're getting less value from crits, since more of your DPR is coming from static modifiers, which don't benefit from them.

Back of the envelope, suppose you did have a way of generating constant advantage that worked with elven accuracy, and you crit on an 18 or higher. Compare dual-scimitars to single rapier + BB at level 5:

TWF:

Base (1st attack): 1d6 + 4 = 7.5
Base (2nd attack): 1d6 = 3.5
Base to hit (advantage + elven accuracy): 0.936
Crit damage (per attack): 1d6 = 3.5
To-crit (per attack, advantage): 0.386
Sneak attack damage: 3d6 = 10.5
Sneak attack to hit: (1 - 0.064)^2 = 0.996
Sneak attack to crit (w/o holding it back): 0.386 + (0.064) * 0.386 = 0.411

Expected total damage: 0.936 * (7.5 + 3.5) + 2 * 3.5 * 0.386 + 0.996 * 10.5 + 0.411 * 10.5 = 27.8

Booming Blade:

Base Damage: 2d8 + 3d6 + 4 = 25.5
Base to-hit: 0.936
Crit Damage: 2d8 + 3d6 = 19.5
To-Crit: 0.386

Total: 0.936 * 23.5 + 0.386 * 19.5 = 29.5

Yes, the inability to use Reckless Attack in conjunction with Elven Accuracy pretty much derails the build.

I agree that, with some way to generate advantage on every attack, Booming Blade becomes a lot better. Without something like Reckless Attack, how would you do it? I know a lot of people like to tout the owl familiar as a source of constant advantage, but in my experience, the owl gets pasted pretty quickly, and usually grants advantage for about one or two rounds every short rest. At 1 HP, it makes an irresistible target, and killing it provides foes with an easy way to try to even the odds against an overwhelming force, especially if they are forced to use a ranged attack any way in order to avoid the BB rider. It's an instant debuff, as opposed to slugging away at the bottomless bag of HP which is the typical PC without diminishing his damage output one bit. I won't even bother to mention AOE attacks. Outside the white room, I find the advantage provided by the owl is highly situational.

 

[Yunru]

since there is very little chance you are ever going to get your BB rider damage with high enough frequency to make the DPR for a Booming Blade Swashbuckler equal to that of a TWF Swashbuckler at almost any level

This here? This is an opinion. One that, in my experience, is wrong.

I won't even touch the hot mess that is taking the break-even point at level 5 and applying it across all levels.

Sure is a good thing that was never suggested then. If only someone had worked it out across every level so we could just check out the points where BB changes (<5,5,11,17), since that'd give a best-case for BB.

Also, please show me which three or four ASIs you would choose in order to raise the Booming Blade DPR above the two or three ASIs still available to the TWF build with Dual Wielder. I'd be more than happy to factor these into the math if you supply them. Is it the magic white room owl familiar that never gets attacked and grants advantage every single round of every single combat?

For someone complaining about snark (in regards to a post that genuinely had none), this sure is a lot of snark.

I see your Dual Wielder and raise you a Shield Master.

 

[Esker]

I agree that, with some way to generate advantage on every attack, Booming Blade becomes a lot better. Without something like Reckless Attack, how would you do it? I know a lot of people like to tout the owl familiar as a source of constant advantage, but in my experience, the owl gets pasted pretty quickly

The owl familiar is certainly in YMMV territory, but my AT's owl doesn't get killed too often. But part of the reason for that is that there are often other sources of advantage available, so I don’t have to make constant flybys.

With shadow blade I automatically get advantage in dim light. When not in dim light I'll often use Web to restrain enemies.

Granted these are not available to a swashbuckler - - another reason to prefer AT, though it also helps that I took wizard levels for more slots - - but other characters can provide advantage as well: faerie fire and blindness are two that come up a lot at my table, but if you have a battlemaster or a character with shield master, they have a lot of ways to give you advantage too. Our cleric will occasionally use an action to dim the lights using thaumaturgy once she has her concentration spell up.

I think most people recognize how valuable advantage is to a rogue (especially one with booming blade and elven accuracy as mine has) that they're likely to work a bit at giving it to you.

 

[Yunru]

I mean, the most reliable is the Mastermind, at least in pairs.

 

[Esker]

I mean, the most reliable is the Mastermind, at least in pairs.

Yeah, that'd be a powerful combo, if a RP recipe for some spoiled broth, as it were. Pretty rare (in my experience, anyway) to see a group with two characters sharing a class, let alone a subclass, though.