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5E [GUIDE] My Word Is My Sword: The Paladin Guide

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Expeditious Retreat work nicely with Find Steed.

Conjure Volley, while not gotten until 17th, is a DEX save vs. your CHR-based DC, it does not need DEX or attack rolls.



To me the fact that this can happen every round you meet the conditions with no per-rest limit, and is affecting CHR creatures, so probably 3-4 when you get it up to 5 later on. That's pretty amazing. Paladins don't have a lot to deal with hordes, but the benefit off a horde is that you can drop someone every turn. So this helps them shine in what is traditionally a place they are only so-so. And it's useful to some degree the rest of the time.

Plus it has synergy with the CD for an extended crit range.
I agree. Mighty Deed is much better than it was rated. Paladins are the kings at killing things early in fights. This allows you to go KO a minion, buff the party and then charge onto the next minion to repeat.
 

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Well, I see your points about killing minions for the buff or debuff. That is quite good in a battle against a group of multiple moderate to weak enemies. In a battle against a boss it's a bit less reliable. Even a Polearm Master or dual-wielder with 3 attacks/round, Legendary Strike and advantage from somewhere will "only" have a 47% chance of landing a crit in any given round. And less than that in the first round (34% with advantage) because Legendary Strike takes a bonus action to activate (and thus no PM/off-hand attack).

I could see bumping Mighty Deed to blue because of minion battles. Doubt I'd bump it to sky blue.

EDIT: Elven Accuracy DEX dual-wielder with advantage + Legendary Strike has 47% to crit round 1 and 61% rounds 2+. Better, but still a significant chance you won't crit.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Well, I see your points about killing minions for the buff or debuff. That is quite good in a battle against a group of multiple moderate to weak enemies. In a battle against a boss it's a bit less reliable. Even a Polearm Master or dual-wielder with 3 attacks/round, Legendary Strike and advantage from somewhere will "only" have a 47% chance of landing a crit in any given round. And less than that in the first round (34% with advantage) because Legendary Strike takes a bonus action to activate (and thus no PM/off-hand attack).

I could see bumping Mighty Deed to blue because of minion battles. Doubt I'd bump it to sky blue.

EDIT: Elven Accuracy DEX dual-wielder with advantage + Legendary Strike has 47% to crit round 1 and 61% rounds 2+. Better, but still a significant chance you won't crit.
Maybe, I still feel like it's one of the better ones.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Guided Strike: Lv. 3, Channel Divinity (1 total/short rest). Stolen from the War Cleric, +10 to a single attack roll. Mostly there for when you REALLY need to hit with an active Wrathful Smite on the first attack of combat, which can be a big deal in a few levels.
I don't see where you have considered what this feature does to NOVA potential during the early turns of a fight. To me that makes it pretty impactful.
 

delph

Explorer
From the official Sage Advice:



Also from the Sage Advice:



(So what's in the official SA is, in fact, considered official for the game, not just guiding.)
but it's still possible make it between attack, if you have more attack, isn't it? when you take on 4th lvl shield master, you wil get extra attack in 5th lvl... no big lack in this. And if you are one of first after enemy's turn you can attack, shove, attack and then everyone after you and before him.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
but it's still possible make it between attack, if you have more attack, isn't it? when you take on 4th lvl shield master, you wil get extra attack in 5th lvl... no big lack in this. And if you are one of first after enemy's turn you can attack, shove, attack and then everyone after you and before him.
Best to avoid the shield master debate no? You do know there’s a good number that based on the latest information and sage advice disagree with that assessment?
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
but it's still possible make it between attack, if you have more attack, isn't it? when you take on 4th lvl shield master, you wil get extra attack in 5th lvl... no big lack in this. And if you are one of first after enemy's turn you can attack, shove, attack and then everyone after you and before him.
The wording from SA is "During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play."

There's debate on this, nothing clearly lined out that I am aware. (And I'd be glad to be proven wrong.) Is "after you have taken" and "must be satisfied" mean started or finished?

The argument for is along the lines that if a character has taken at least one attack, then they have taken the Attack action and can use the Shield Master bonus attack.

The argument against is that the wording implies it must be satisfied, completed.

The other argument against is that the only thing that can interrupt an Action is a Reaction. A Bonus Action can not do it. This is why the Attack action needs a special exemption to allow movement between extra attack.

That last one I find telling, and would explain why there isn't more clarification - it's already covered by other rules and may not of even occurred as a possible case to address.
 

Ivresse

Villager
Was just wondering with regards to the shield mastery feat and the conversation that has been going on here, would shield mastery still not be a worthwhile feat to an Oath of Conquest paladin, to be able to shove an enemy using a bonus action rather than one of your attacks and thus get full use of all of your available attacks while emitting the aura of conquest and keeping him prone?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Was just wondering with regards to the shield mastery feat and the conversation that has been going on here, would shield mastery still not be a worthwhile feat to an Oath of Conquest paladin, to be able to shove an enemy using a bonus action rather than one of your attacks and thus get full use of all of your available attacks while emitting the aura of conquest and keeping him prone?
Useful sure - compared to other options - purely inferior.

Consider polearm master and a spear - You can use your first attack to attempt to prone - granting you advantage on your other attacks. You get an extra attack against already prone enemies or against enemies that are too large to prone.
 
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Snap judgments from the new UA: Class Features article. While Paladins didn't get as much as many classes did, what they did get is, uh, pretty damn good:

Fighting Styles:

Blessed Warrior - easily a top pick for Fighting Style. Sacred Flame (or Toll the Dead if you're feeling less holy and more necromantic) to cover for the Paladin's ranged combat weakness? Yes, please. Guidance on a Paladin? Hell yeah. Word of Radiance might also be worth considering for some at-will AoE, though IMO ranged damage + Guidance is the better deal. (And keep in mind initiative rolls are an ability check, so Guidance is in effect an initiative boost too!)

Blind Fighting - EXTREMELY BROKEN as currently written. Spellcaster with Darkness or Fog Cloud + this = All the advantage you could ever want. Now factor GWM in the mix. This one needs to be nerfed, if not omitted entirely in an official release.

Interception - at least better for your action economy and is more consistent than Protection, since you only use your reaction if your ally actually got hit, though Protection can nullify an attack entirely, so hard to say which is better.

Thrown Weapon Fighting - can actually be useful as a more martially-based alternative to Blessed Warrior in giving a STR-Paladin viable ranged combat capability.

Unarmed Fighting - obviously niche, but looks pretty good in that niche and would fit the Oath of Heroism from the earlier UA like a glove.

Additional Spells:

Spirit Guardians - Obviously all Paladins will be keeping this prepared at all times once they hit Lv. 9. Some may say this is too much, but IMO it's fine, after all the Paladin doesn't get it until four levels after the Cleric does. Many campaigns are wrapping up at Lv. 9, so AFAIC it's nice to see all Paladins get at least something good to deal with hordes before Lv. 17. Giving this spell to all Paladins does make Oath of the Crown look rather underwhelming, though, as having Spirit Guardians as an Oath spell was basically the only real reason to play that Oath.

Most of the other spells added to the list are pretty decent, though nothing else too impressive.

Channel Divinity:

Harness Divine Power - Your CD for another 1st-level slot per short rest you can use to Smite? That's amazing, especially at early levels.
 
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Feldspar

Explorer
BTW an advantage of using a d10 pole-arm like a halberd and taking GW fighter at second level is it allows you to ask DM to use a d12 instead of a d10 with the re-roll feature. The average damage is identical and ... you don’t waste time on the re-roll.
The average damage is not identical. The average would be the same only if you allow continuous rerolling of 1's and 2's. If you wanted to allow that, while also minimizing time spent rolling dice, the better way to do it would be to change the d10 to a d8+2, not to a d12.

The formula for how much extra damage you get from the style as written is, for an n-sided dice: (n-2)/n. A d10 weapon will average 4/5, or .8, of a point of damage more.


Allowing continuous rerolling or its equivalent will increase the damage gained on average by 1 per die rolled. One could argue that this is a good thing as the style is weaker than others and could use some buffage. But do note that it exacerbates the already exiting problem of it being much better for greatswords and mauls than other weapons. As it stands the 2d6 gets half a point more damage from the style than a d12 does (2x2/3 vs 5/6). If you stop limiting rerolls that increases to being a full point better.

I dislike having some (otherwise equivalent) weapons doing d12 and others doing 2d6 on general principles. When you add in the way those differences interact with the questionable way they wrote Barbarian extra critical damage and great weapon fighting style I absolutely hate it.
 

Rated the Oath of Glory from Mythic Odysseys of Theros. While it's not actively bad, I'm not very impressed with it either, to be honest. It's definitely nerfed overall from the UA Oath of Heroism, which was clearly the prototype.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
I've just been rereading this thread and I have three observations:

Improved Divine Smite: this really needs to be gold as it applies to Bonus attacks and Reaction attacks too. That's up to 4 dice of extra damage per round, not 2.

The Shield Master feat: even if you're only allowed to shove your opponent after your attack, it's still good if you have a friend ready to lay the smack-down.

Magic Initiate: I'm disappointed you didn't call out the Bard for the Vicious Mockery cantrip - imposing Disadvantage on attack rolls is great - and Feather Fall.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm not the guide writer but here are my thoughts.

I've just been rereading this thread and I have three observations:

Improved Divine Smite: this really needs to be gold as it applies to Bonus attacks and Reaction attacks too. That's up to 4 dice of extra damage per round, not 2.
I personally wouldn't bring up reactions in relation to it, but I would rate it very high.

he Shield Master feat: even if you're only allowed to shove your opponent after your attack, it's still good if you have a friend ready to lay the smack-down.
That's still assuming the initiative flow is something like enemy you friend. Even then you still have to land it. Even if you land it you may be hurting the ranged allies on your team more than you are helping the melee allies. Etc. It's just too situational and even when it does work its fairly weak. The old version where you could affect your own attacks was much better.

Magic Initiate: I'm disappointed you didn't call out the Bard for the Vicious Mockery cantrip - imposing Disadvantage on attack rolls is great - and Feather Fall.
Vicious Mockery takes an action, relies on charisma to hit. Paladins already have a very good attack action to take that relies on strength (or dex). That feat for that purpose should be rated very low.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
Vicious Mockery takes an action, relies on charisma to hit. Paladins already have a very good attack action to take that relies on strength (or dex). That feat for that purpose should be rated very low.
Paladins typically have high CHA.

There are often situations where the paladin cannot make a physical attack - being restrained, for example, or the target is on a ledge above for another. Or the paladin could be weaponless. Or... And it imposes Disadvantage. See that charging giant? Wouldn't you like it to have Disadvantage on its big attack?

Yes, it's situational, but there are a lot of situations in which it can be used.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Paladins typically have high CHA.

There are often situations where the paladin cannot make a physical attack - being restrained, for example, or the target is on a ledge above for another. Or the paladin could be weaponless. Or... And it imposes Disadvantage. See that charging giant? Wouldn't you like it to have Disadvantage on its big attack?

Yes, it's situational, but there are a lot of situations in which it can be used.
not typically as high as str
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Paladins typically have high CHA.

There are often situations where the paladin cannot make a physical attack - being restrained, for example, or the target is on a ledge above for another. Or the paladin could be weaponless. Or... And it imposes Disadvantage. See that charging giant? Wouldn't you like it to have Disadvantage on its big attack?

Yes, it's situational, but there are a lot of situations in which it can be used.
the bigger issue is opportunity cost. You are talking aboIt an ability that isat best situationally useful and at worst a situation where it’s better to use than attack may never come up.
 



Quartz

Adventurer
Do you know what opportunity cost means?
Clearly not the way you mean it. Look, a paladin isn't gonig to use Vicious Mockery when she can get in a full HtH attack complete with Smites, Feats, and whatnot. But guess what? She doesn't always have that opportunity. And that's where having something else to do - another attack mode - comes in.
 

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