D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

[NADRIGOL]

In addition one question about how to read the rules when using the cantrips green flame blade or boom blade. Both cantrips state that a melde attack has to be made. In the PHB on page 205 it is written that a spell requiring an attack (melde or range) uses the spellcasting abilitiy modifier.

Does this mean that the bladesinger a) uses INT bonus when attacking with GFB or BB cantrips and when the bladesinger does b) a full attack (potentially with dual wielding) DEX bonus is applied?

if the answer is yes, is this reflected in the guide /statistics?

That would be the case, except the SCAG cantrips specifically state "make a melee attack with a weapon" as opposed to say Shocking Grasp which says "make a melee spell attack". The rules on 205 apply to spell attacks, while 194 outlines the rules for "melee attacks" and "ranged attacks".

The tables in the guide only reflect average damage output, not taking into account to-hit chance. However, all of the attacks in the tables (except Firebolt) will be Dex based attacks anyways.

 

[NADRIGOL]

I am not sure I agree with your assessment of George. It's not always about DPR, George is pretty unkillable, and that can count for a lot. I've had some experience playing George and it can be pretty satisfying to tie up enemies while they are stuck uselessly trying to poke at you.

He's definitely tankier on the HP side, but Alexander likely has the same AC and more spell slots to burn on defensive reactions. Less likely to die to AOE effects that can't be countered with Absorb Elements, but I think at the end of the day George and Alexander are on the same tier defensively. Which means George is giving up a lot of spellcasting for a little more DPR. That's what makes me feel it isn't worth it. To be fair, George is still a strong build overall, and a decent dip for EK, I just feel many players will feel more drawn to Alexander or Brutus (maybe that's just the min-max'r in me!).

 

[NADRIGOL]

Two things of note:
Dual wielding doesn't work with the SCAG cantrips: You're reducing your DPR by dual wielding vs using the cantrips.
Duelling doesn't increase your hit chance.

Also seems someone forgot Magic Stone. Going SAD for a bonus action roughly every other round is quite a good deal given the above.

As UngeheuerLich points out, at certain levels (with certain builds), dual wielding will out-damage the SCAG cantrips on their own. This can be seen in a few of the tables at the end of the guide. The real synergy comes from Haste however, which allows you to proc your off-hand attack with the Haste granted attack, in the same turn you use one of the SCAG cantrips. I think without this particular combo, the feat expense in the dual wielder build would render it questionable.

Thank you for pointing out my dueling error. I must have thought it was +2 on attack rolls. I will put some thought into representing this where appropriate throughout the guide.

Magic Stone is not a Wizard's Cantrip. It is only on the Druid and Warlock spell lists. I'm not sure where you're going with the SAD comment.

 

[NADRIGOL]

There's a general issue that these cantrips diminish the value of Second Attack. Not an "oh no, the game is ruined" issue. Maybe not an issue at all, just a change.

I think you're right that it's more a change than a problem. It gives you options in most scenarios. The SCAG cantrips clump all of your damage output into a single attack roll. If you want to have a better chance at dealing at least some damage, a full attack action will be better. It also straight up out-damages the SCAG cantrips at certain levels with certain builds.

I think giving the Bladesinger the equivalent of War Magic would have been too much. As I point out in my "BS dip for EK" section I think that Mar Magic isn't as broken for an EK (even one dipping BS). I think it would have given too much damage output to the Bladesinger. I think Extra Attack actually ends up feeling pretty balanced.

 

[Yunru]

You stop fighter too early. Fighter 6 gives you more ASIs than otherwise available to you, whilst Eldritch Knight 7 gets you the powerful War Magic feature.

 

[NADRIGOL]

You stop fighter too early. Fighter 6 gives you more ASIs than otherwise available to you, whilst Eldritch Knight 7 gets you the powerful War Magic feature.

Fighter 6 gives you two early Fighter ASI's in place of two late Wizard ASI's. Not actually a gain. You're also giving up 9th level spells (and only get a single 8th level slot at level 19 or 20 [depending on your level order]), and Spell Mastery. If you wanted the lost Wizard ASI back (from more than a single level of multiclass), just four levels of Fighter would do, but still at the cost of 9th level spells.

EK 7 would give you War Magic, which will let you get one extra attack in after a SCAG cantrip (which could have been accomplished with TWF and Haste, or any BA damage spell [Flaming Sphere, Minute Meteors, etc...]). In addition to the 6 level dip loss, you lose Song of Victory, which is a huge damage buff at upper levels. If you take all of your fighter levels early, you could get a potential damage buff through the mid levels from War Magic, but Song of Victory definitely out-damages War Magic in most scenarios.

I think one level of Fighter dip is great for TWF (and Con Save if level 1), two has potential for Action Surge, three has potential for Maneuvers, and Four is a maybe to get your ASI back, but anything beyond that seems like a waste.

 

[Yunru]

Not true. ASIs are at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19. Fighter 7/Wizard 13 gets ASIs at 4, 6, 11, 15 and 19: In effect moving all the ASi's forward except the last.

Fighter 8/Wizard 12 also gets more ASI than that, at the cost of Wizard 13 stuff.

Also of note is that Song of Victory is cool and all, but how long until you see it? And how long until that campaign ends when you do? Vs War Magic being as early as level 7. More levels of Fighter also makes you tougher.

For the same reason ninth level spells aren't that great outside of whiteboard situations. You get it for your last three levels if you go straight Wizard, and later still for multiclasses.

 

[NADRIGOL]

Not true. ASIs are at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19. Fighter 7/Wizard 13 gets ASIs at 4, 6, 11, 15 and 19: In effect moving all the ASi's forward except the last.

So you get them sooner if you start pure Fighter. This is true, but you originally said you get "more ASI's". This is not true.

Fighter 8/Wizard 12 also gets more ASI than that, at the cost of Wizard 13 stuff.

Giving up 8th level spells.

Also of note is that Song of Victory is cool and all, but how long until you see it? And how long until that campaign ends when you do? Vs War Magic being as early as level 7. More levels of Fighter also makes you tougher.

But the same line of thinking (why worry about what happens late game if you might not get there) makes me wonder what the point of starting with 7/8 levels of Fighter is if you may never get to actually play a Bladesinger... Yeah you could have had War Magic by level 7, but you also could have level 4 spells by level 7.

Putting so many levels into Fighter dilutes the Bladesinger experience to me... Yeah you'll have a bunch of HP and maybe an extra/earlier feat, but fewer spells known/slots.

At the end of the day I also just don't think War Magic is worth the dip. Just gives you one more way to spend your BA. I don't think you need it.

For the same reason ninth level spells aren't that great outside of whiteboard situations. You get it for your last three levels if you go straight Wizard, and later still for multiclasses.

Last four levels. 9th level spells start at 17. And if you aren't planning to play to 17, then you're delaying something else to your last few levels (7, 8 level spells? Song of Defence?).

 

[Yunru]

So you get them sooner if you start pure Fighter. This is true, but you originally said you get "more ASI's". This is not true.



Giving up 8th level spells.



But the same line of thinking (why worry about what happens late game if you might not get there) makes me wonder what the point of starting with 7/8 levels of Fighter is if you may never get to actually play a Bladesinger... Yeah you could have had War Magic by level 7, but you also could have level 4 spells by level 7.

Putting so many levels into Fighter dilutes the Bladesinger experience to me... Yeah you'll have a bunch of HP and maybe an extra/earlier feat, but fewer spells known/slots.

At the end of the day I also just don't think War Magic is worth the dip. Just gives you one more way to spend your BA. I don't think you need it.



Last four levels. 9th level spells start at 17. And if you aren't planning to play to 17, then you're delaying something else to your last few levels (7, 8 level spells? Song of Defence?).

Because a bladesinger is a guy with a sword and a spell. A Eldritch Knight is a bladesinger, plus Bladesinger comes online at a maximum of level 9, leaving you over half the game.

Flavour wise there is no impact. Power wise you trade some spell power for martial power. But you're a Bladesinger, you're doing that anyway or you wouldn't be a Bladesinger (at least, not the type this guide focuses on).

 

[NADRIGOL]

Because a bladesinger is a guy with a sword and a spell. A Eldritch Knight is a bladesinger, plus Bladesinger comes online at a maximum of level 9, leaving you over half the game.

The Eldritch Knight has been around for a while though, as the Martial Expert with a little magic. The beauty of Bladesinger is full Wizard spellcasting progression with a considerable martial prowess. So I personally don't think of the EK as a BS at all, which is probably where our fundamental playstyle differences come from.

Flavour wise there is no impact. Power wise you trade some spell power for martial power. But you're a Bladesinger, you're doing that anyway or you wouldn't be a Bladesinger (at least, not the type this guide focuses on).

A single level of multiclass, as I promote often, is a slight trade yes (but as I point out, the last level of Wizard yields very little). But the pure bladesinger gives up no spellcasting for their martial prowess. You're giving up the other Wizarding traditions abilities, but I for one think Bladesinger is overpowered in comparison with the others.

But beyond playstyle/flavor considerations, I still just don't think a bunch of HP (on a damage reduction/mitigation focussed class) and War Magic (just one more BA option) are worth so many levels of dip. Your martial damage output won't improve, so you're giving up high level spells and Bladesinger features for some tankiness and one more feat. I just think it's poorly optimized.