D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

[NADRIGOL]

A few thoughts on multiclassing.

I'm not sure I'd rate Paladin sky blue. Yes, Divine Smite and smite spells, but you're moving Charisma from a dump stat to at least a 13.

The stat distribution is horrible yes. But you're taking the focus away from some typical Bladesinger/Wizard playstyles and focusing more on Smite. Quite different from the rest of the guide, and not easy to play, but I think still on the same power level to deserve Sky Blue. I think if I were to ever try this, I would do a three or four way multiclass to achieve something like the Multi-Smite build I touch on in the "One of Many" section.

Ranger (Hunter) 3 feature Hordebreaker, if you are already using the Haste-for-Attack-Action trick you mentioned, can give you another attack as a afree action.

Thanks for pointing this out! Not sure how I missed it. Slightly situational, but clearly the better choice. This extends the Ranger interest beyond what I noted for a level 2 dip. TWF, Hunter's Mark (or maneuvers), and a possible free extra attack, for a three level dip. Compare that to TWF, Action Surge, and Maneuvers for a three level Fighter dip. Definitely a contender.

Sorc has the same Chr issue as Paladin, and brings you a lot less in terms of spells known. But it does have Con saves if you start with it. Twin works nicely with Haste, I wouldn't sideline it. Subtle spell also makes your spells immune to counterspell, so if that's a tactic your DM uses with any regularity it's a great pick.

I've made a few updates to reflect this.

I also have a few specific-to-UA dip thoughts, btu those are only valid if a DM allows UA.

Mystic is the only other INT primary class. You can get a bunch of alternate nifty abilities. If you go Immortal at 3rd you'll get INT temp HPs every round, which will help with your own HP issues. Also the disiplines can help. The focus for Celerity gives you advantage on init, which lets you get your bladesong style up earlier, before people attack you. Psionic Weapon gives something akin to paladin's Divine Smite, but powered by PP instead of spell slots. If this is a blessing or a missed opportunity depends on how quickly your slots run dry.

Warlock (undying light) gets +Chr damage to all fire and radiant, which can add to some SCAG cantrips and a bunch of spells.

Sorcerer (shadow) has Con saves like all other sorcs - but it also gets to make a Con save against getting reduced to 0 HPs. DC 5+damage. You can make the save every time, not just once. Also once you get sorcery points you can use the to cast darkness you can see though, a nice trick to get advantage.

I have referenced some UA content, but not all of it. I'll add it to my list of things to do, but I'm not sure when I'll get around to it.

 

[GarrettKP]

Well I'm glad the four pages of comments I missed overnight aren't all feedback I need to act on...

I think Tough, Resilient (Con), and +2 Con are all viable. I think both of you made great points. Here's my input on the situation... Screw all of them. Both of you made similar arguments as to how your opponents choice was only valuable in fringe scenarios. I think this is true. Singers already have great AC and defensive spell buffs. As a Singer, you should be playing carefully, casting the most appropriate defensive spells, and not inserting yourself into scenarios where 30 damage is going to drop you. You're still a Wizard with full spellcasting progression, and heading to the back-line behind cover and chucking out some spells should still be viable (assuming you somehow have no healing options to get you melee ready).

Considering how cool the opportunities are from feats like Dual Wielder, Warcaster, Mobile, and how across-the-character-sheet advantageous bumping Dex or Int will be, I wouldn't be putting much consideration into the HP/Con options unless my DM's playstyle had directly lead to me thinking I had no other choice.

I've reviewed the relevant entries in the guide, and decided not to change anything. I have added a quick review of stat bump ASI's to the feat section for reference, but they should surprise no one.

My personal issue with those feats are as follows:

Dual Wield requires you to also take Warcaster. Otherwise you cannot take advantage of the feat. And personally I would rather take Resilient Dex or Con to get an extra save, which is the easiest way to attack a Singer. So I don't have room for more than 2 feats and one is gonna be Resilient for me.

Warcaster is fine, but to me the only reason to take it is for the advantage on Concentration check. The ability to dual wield and cast is fine but without a fighting style or the feat to support dual wielding it doesn't add much to you offensive fire power. And I've already stated I am not taking the feat. So to me the dual wielding aspect isn't a sell.

The last selling point is the reaction casting. But I have never used my reaction for anything other than Defense with my Singer. So I'm not gonna waste my reaction when Song of Defense and Shield and Absorb Elements are better choices.

So while advantage on Concentration checks is awesome, I already get a boost with Bladesong AND defensive spells make concentration checks much easier to pass. Especially Song of Defense. So Warcaster does nothing for me.

Mobile is interesting, and while it certainly is a good choice I just personally would rather cover up my Singers flaws (HP) than further boost something I already get boosted (speed and escapability).

Ultimately it's just a play style thing. I would rather further boost my biggest flaws (Saves and HP) than boost my offense and live with my squishyness.


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[NADRIGOL]

I think part of what keeps dual wielding somewhat viable is that it's not getting compared to two-handed weapons or to weapon and shield, both of which are prohibited by Bladesong. I like using Haste for an Attack action to trigger your offhand attack. Considering MAD, I'm not sure how much I'd want to give up an ASI for the feat though. Dex/Int plus if multiclassing whatever you need for that.

The synergy with increasing number of attacks and Song of Victory is also strong. Dual Wielding definitely seems more viable with a Variant Human build (which won't be allowed in many groups), and particularly with a Fighter build. Not always an option, but an incredibly strong one when available. Personally in my playthrough, I'm leaning towards not maxing Int to allow for feats (I just have so much fun with Dual Wielder, Warcaster, and Mobile!).

Though needing Haste to allow regular+efficient use of a feat seems worrisome. If a DM does the 6-8 combats per day, that's a lot of slots. Especially since in melee you are more likely to be hit and need to make concentration saves even if you have the nice bladesinging bonus. Plus it locks out other concentration spells like Fire Shield and such. And it takes an action to cast, so you are delayed getting into the mix.

Definitely a concern putting so much emphasis on one buff. Note, that you're not useless without it, but we're sinking feats into making it work, so you do want it to pay off. Training your party to short rest every two Fights will be helpful, to recharge Bladesong but also to recoup Haste slots.

Depending on the build, concentration saves can become somewhat trivial. I have Con Save proficiency, Int bonus from Bladesong, and advantage from Warcaster. This makes my average roll at 5th level roughly a 21, which would succeed on damage taken up to 42HP. Given how much effort we put into mitigating/avoiding damage, this doesn't seem like it will be an issue in practice.

Always using your concentration of Haste is weird, but I think when you really look at the concentration spell options, none of them shout Bladesinger as much as Haste. Especially with non-concentration defensive spells like Mirror Image and Blink available.

The action to cast Haste sucks. Early on in levels, you end up having to choose the single most appropriate round-one buff for combat, unless you can ambush-style anticipate an encounter (in which case, go buff crazy you melee god you!). Later in levels, you could always Contingency cast Haste to start with your Bladesong (or your other favorite round-one defensive spell).

 

[NADRIGOL]

My personal issue with those feats are as follows:

Dual Wield requires you to also take Warcaster. Otherwise you cannot take advantage of the feat. And personally I would rather take Resilient Dex or Con to get an extra save, which is the easiest way to attack a Singer. So I don't have room for more than 2 feats and one is gonna be Resilient for me.

Warcaster is fine, but to me the only reason to take it is for the advantage on Concentration check. The ability to dual wield and cast is fine but without a fighting style or the feat to support dual wielding it doesn't add much to you offensive fire power. And I've already stated I am not taking the feat. So to me the dual wielding aspect isn't a sell.

The last selling point is the reaction casting. But I have never used my reaction for anything other than Defense with my Singer. So I'm not gonna waste my reaction when Song of Defense and Shield and Absorb Elements are better choices.

So while advantage on Concentration checks is awesome, I already get a boost with Bladesong AND defensive spells make concentration checks much easier to pass. Especially Song of Defense. So Warcaster does nothing for me.

Mobile is interesting, and while it certainly is a good choice I just personally would rather cover up my Singers flaws (HP) than further boost something I already get boosted (speed and escapability).

Ultimately it's just a play style thing. I would rather further boost my biggest flaws (Saves and HP) than boost my offense and live with my squishyness.

Yeah, definitely just a playstyle difference. The type of Bladesinger I'm playing (and promoting in this guide, is very offensive, relying on intrinsic defensive capability, and as you earlier pointed out, smart decision making. Dual Wielder and Warcaster do go hand in hand, and are both only relevant to an all-in offensive melee Bladesinger. I have however had several opportunities to lock down opponents with an OA Booming Blade, when I knew my turn was soon and wasn't worried about saving my RA for defense.

Mobile I think is very cool for any Bladesinger. Assuming you're going to be in melee often, I have to disagree with you on one point, which is escapability. Bladesingers aren't inherently great at escaping, beyond having access to Misty Step (which I'd rather save my BA for damage) and having high AC (allowing you to shrug your shoulders at OA's). The ability to run in and around several enemies, ending wherever you please, without having to worry about OA's gives you huge flexibility in combat (as I point out in the guide, as long as you're playing on a grid).

Th min-max'r in me says "out-smart your flaws, and boost your strengths" but there's obviously a huge amount of validity to patching those weak spots instead, and being a great all-around'er.

 

[GarrettKP]

Yeah, definitely just a playstyle difference. The type of Bladesinger I'm playing (and promoting in this guide, is very offensive, relying on intrinsic defensive capability, and as you earlier pointed out, smart decision making. Dual Wielder and Warcaster do go hand in hand, and are both only relevant to an all-in offensive melee Bladesinger. I have however had several opportunities to lock down opponents with an OA Booming Blade, when I knew my turn was soon and wasn't worried about saving my RA for defense.

Mobile I think is very cool for any Bladesinger. Assuming you're going to be in melee often, I have to disagree with you on one point, which is escapability. Bladesingers aren't inherently great at escaping, beyond having access to Misty Step (which I'd rather save my BA for damage) and having high AC (allowing you to shrug your shoulders at OA's). The ability to run in and around several enemies, ending wherever you please, without having to worry about OA's gives you huge flexibility in combat (as I point out in the guide, as long as you're playing on a grid).

Th min-max'r in me says "out-smart your flaws, and boost your strengths" but there's obviously a huge amount of validity to patching those weak spots instead, and being a great all-around'er.

See my thoughts on escapability are because I'm more defensive in style. Misty Step is my go to to escape. And even without that, if I'm running into a hoard I'm gonna cast Haste on myself. And I can use the Haste action to disengage already. So Mobile just doesn't provide enough for me to take it over a more relevant (to my playstyle) feat and just using a spell.


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[NADRIGOL]

@NADRIGOL: One comment about the guide. In the multiclass-section about the paladin second level dip it is written

"Note that spells requiring saves will be wisdom based, which makes..."

In PHB on page 84/85 it is mentioned that paladin spells are charisma based.

First, you might want to change that in the guide. Secondly, the Spell DC is better for those paladin spells (compared to if wisdom would be the applied spellcasting ability). Sure it is not as good as a fully maxed INT wizard. But considering that the Paladin 2 / bladesinger X has MAD requirement, the wisdom will most likely be 8, whereas INT and CHA are 14 or 13. Assuming INT is not increased on the Paladin/bladesinger (instead DEX is maxed or feats are taken), the wizard and Paladin spells have the same (or nearly the same) spell DC.

If I would build an high elven pallysinger, my stats would be 14,14,12,14,8,14 (after applying race modifications). So in my build the spell dc is for wizard and Paladin spells the same.

Great catch. Thanks for that. That does make the Paladin spells, including beauties like Wrathful Smite, a little more viable.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Interesting guide.

Maybe the guide could be renamed, to reflect that it is less a Bladesinger guide as much as it is a guide to Gishing as a Bladesinger. From the former perspective, going Wizard 20 is totally awesome: You get all your wizard spell goodness on time because you didn't multiclass, plus you get extra defense (very nice for wizards), plus you get some stabitystabstab backup ability when you want or need it. Sky blue, not ordinary blue. From the latter perspective, yeah, just ordinary blue: Whether you intend to concentrate on spells (Traditional Wizard on your list) or want melee to be your first option (Pure Bladesinger), clearly there are better choices... for a subset of Bladesingers. Traditional Wizard: Sky blue, but that's not what your guide covers.

Paladin/Bladesinger: Compared to the similar Paladin2/AbjurerX, I think this does not deserve a sky blue rating. The latter gets to ignore Dex because he can wear plate. He's a bit less MAD. He can also hope for items that increase Str, and can actually get full use out of a wizard's staff (or paladin's sword). Weapon choices are rather nice too. Racial choices are also friendly, including an anti-Hobson's Choice: Half-elf for +2Cha+1Int+1Str or VHuman for +1Int+1Str and Heavy Armor Mastery? The Bladesinger version can be made to work, even work well, but... ordinary blue.

Finally, the basic types at the top of the guide lack an entry for the apparently obvious F1/BSX or F2/BSX. I suppose those can pass as multi-class abominations, but seem far less of a stretch than the P/BS build, which is a poster child for Weird Multiclass Entities from Beyond that Just Might Work in our Dimension.


Just me,

Ken

 

[GarrettKP]

Hi,

Interesting guide.

Maybe the guide could be renamed, to reflect that it is less a Bladesinger guide as much as it is a guide to Gishing as a Bladesinger. From the former perspective, going Wizard 20 is totally awesome: You get all your wizard spell goodness on time because you didn't multiclass, plus you get extra defense (very nice for wizards), plus you get some stabitystabstab backup ability when you want or need it. Sky blue, not ordinary blue. From the latter perspective, yeah, just ordinary blue: Whether you intend to concentrate on spells (Traditional Wizard on your list) or want melee to be your first option (Pure Bladesinger), clearly there are better choices... for a subset of Bladesingers. Traditional Wizard: Sky blue, but that's not what your guide covers.

Paladin/Bladesinger: Compared to the similar Paladin2/AbjurerX, I think this does not deserve a sky blue rating. The latter gets to ignore Dex because he can wear plate. He's a bit less MAD. He can also hope for items that increase Str, and can actually get full use out of a wizard's staff (or paladin's sword). Weapon choices are rather nice too. Racial choices are also friendly, including an anti-Hobson's Choice: Half-elf for +2Cha+1Int+1Str or VHuman for +1Int+1Str and Heavy Armor Mastery? The Bladesinger version can be made to work, even work well, but... ordinary blue.

Finally, the basic types at the top of the guide lack an entry for the apparently obvious F1/BSX or F2/BSX. I suppose those can pass as multi-class abominations, but seem far less of a stretch than the P/BS build, which is a poster child for Weird Multiclass Entities from Beyond that Just Might Work in our Dimension.


Just me,

Ken

I agree that Fighter1-2/BSx is a much more viable multiclass than Paladin/Singer.


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[Schattenriss]

GarrettKP

Dual Wield requires you to also take Warcaster. Otherwise you cannot take advantage of the feat. And personally I would rather take Resilient Dex or Con to get an extra save, which is the easiest way to attack a Singer. So I don't have room for more than 2 feats and one is gonna be Resilient for me.

I see what you mean. I am actually not a fan of the dual wielded feat. But I can see my bladesinger using 2short swords. As far as damage is concerned, the character loses 3 points in average (3 attacks with shorts swords = 3d6 vs. 3 rapieriers with d8). But I get one feat back. So one could still do fighting with two weapons but without the dual wielder feat. Instead you could take either mobile or a feat suiting your resilent feat.

if a fighter 1/bladesinger X is build, you would have the proficiency in con save (starting in fighter). I am thinking to take mobile (too many options granted by this feat: booming blade, green flame blade, escape line...) and Beyond that, Either
a) mobile, warcaster, DEX+2, DEX+2, In+2 are taken or
b) mobile, DEX+2, DEX +2, INT +2, INT +2 are taken.

 

[Schattenriss]

Regarding the Paladin2/BladesingerX build:
I am currently under the impression it is not so much of a difference compared to a pure bladesinger, but it offers a new option with divine smite.

my traditional high elf bladesinger 20:
Str 8, DEX 16, Con 14, INT 16, Wis 8, CHA 12
Feats: Mobile, Warcaster, DEX+2, DEX+2, INT+2
AC max with song active: 12 (light armor) + 5 (DEX) + 4 (INT) = 21
AC Max without Song: 12 (light armor) + 5 (DEX) = 17
Full attack Max damage with 2 Short swords=32,5

paladin2/bladesinger 18: half elf
STR 13, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 14
Feats: Mobile, Warcaster, DEX+2, DEX+2
AC Max with Song active: 12 (ligHt armor) + 5 (DEX) + 2 (INT) + 1 (Paladin fighting style) = 20
AC Max without Song: 12 (light armor) +5 (DEX) +1 (Paladin fighting style) = 18
Full attack max damage with 2 short swords=26,5
potential smite average Damage = 22,5 per attack (Maximum 3 attacks).

Mobile and warcaster can be changed in both builds. Any changes would have to be applied to both builds for comparison. For example if resilent should be taken as a feat instead.

Taking the AC into consideration, the pally singer is not really different than the traditional build. Difference is more on th FA damage. Where the pure bladesinger has a higher consistent damage (32,5) in a full attack round, the pallysinger has a higher peak, if he decides to apply smite to his attacks (plus 22,5 potentially times 3 attacks). The beauty about divine smite is the action economy and that a spell slot is spend only when the attack has hit! That makes an effective usage of spell slots. If the spell slot is used, damage is garantueed without Savin throws. If an attack has missed, the spell slot is not wasted.

Both can be played as a traditional wizard, however the pure bladesinger would have a better spell DC due to INT bonus (5 vs. 2) and would have a better concentration saving throw due to INT caused by bladesong (+4 vs. +2).

The damage of the cantrips is nearly the same. Pure bladesinger is slightly better (2 damage points better) in green flame blade due to higher INT. Booming blade is both the same.

in essence for me the difference is not that big. Both have full spell casting, same usage of cantrips. The pure bladesinger has the better spell casting abilities, whereas the pallysinger has a much higher damage potential in melee.