Gunpowder, fantasy and you

[Zhaleskra]

One of my favorite campaign settings is Forbidden Kingdoms, which in my opinion is a better d20 Modern than d20 Modern. Guns are very much the main weapons, they're accurate and deadly, and being based on pulp novels heroes routinely run though deadly volleys with minimal damage. Magic is included with a few tweaks, no spells above 5th level, and yeah, you have to make a check to cast a spell properly. Spells that would be above 5th level are presented as rituals.

Personally, I'd make 5th level 3.0 magic rituals considering that's where the "world altering effects" start.

 

[Celebrim]

My general rules for firearms.

0) It should be noted that the range increments for almost all ranged weapons in the PH are halfed in my campaign world. Range increments for firearms would be similarly conservative.
1) Most 'primitive' firearms (arquebus, muskets, calivers with matchlock or wheellock mechanisms) have a reload time of about 5 rounds, with various feats probably available to lower that down to 3 rounds or so. Thier damage is roughly equivalent to a crossbow or slightly higher depending on caliber and muzzle velocity, and they have a critical range of 19-20/x3. Depending on construction they might have minor advantages equivalent to the sort of advantages you'd see with masterwork missile weapons of other sorts.
2) Firearms are simple weapons with easy to learn rules of operation.
3) Firearms can be fumbled in ways unique to firearms and the consequences with primitive ones tend to be somewhat more extreme than fumbling some other sort of weapon. But any weapon can be fumbled, it's not a unique problem to firearms.

As firearms advance technologically, they begin to exhibit properties bows don't generally have:

4) High Penetration: Firearms reduce the armor bonus the target is eligible for. Flintlocks and the like start producing +1 penetration bonuses. By the time you get up to modern firearms, you may have penetration bonuses of +6 or more, effectively turning many shots into touch attacks.
5) High Accuracy: Firearms are easier to aim. They get an inherent bonus to hit. This starts out at +1 with roughly 18th century weapons, and quickly scales up to +3 or so with most weapons post the American civil war.

A squad of say Gnoll mercenaries armed with wheellock arquebuses probably inspires no more particular fear and worry to your typical PC party than the same mercenaries armed in a more traditional way (longbows, broadswords, etc.). But a squad of the same Gnoll mercenaries armed with modern weapons (and really, anything in the last century and a half counts as 'modern' for these purposes) is considerably advantaged and represents far more of a threat than they would otherwise. Naturally, the presence of weapons equivalent to late 18th century or 19th century technology would change the social and political landscape. But 15th and probably even 16th century firearms would not IMO necessitate departing from the usual tropes of D&D that much, particularly given the need to accomodate magic.

None of that means however that I include firearms in my D&D settings. There are plenty of other reasons for not wanting to include firearms that have nothing to do with realism.

 

[jonesy]

As someone who has done both shot casting and fletching, casting shot is easy.

My experience was the exact opposite. I was a real fumblefingers with the molding. So, I guess, you'd be the musketeer, and I'm the bowman. Or something.

 

[David Howery]

Misfires, really long loading times, et cetera, aren't worth the hassle. No other weapon gets treated with such exacting demands for realism. There's no good reason to make firearms the exception.

in the interests of game balance, I balanced out the potential high damage inflicted with firearms with misfires, long loading times, and severe range penalties. Otherwise, firearms are just noisy bows. Note that this was way back in 2E days, and I used the "If you roll maximum damage on the damage die roll, roll again for more" rule.

 

[Diamond Cross]

And the best thing about having firearms in a fantasy world is that you can have them enchanted like you can swords bows and other weapons.

I'd love to see a Paladin wielding a Holy M16. That would be awesome!

 

[El Mahdi]

*I'm going on the assumption we are talking about firearms for a pseudo-medieval D&D setting, which would make them equivalent to the early firearms from the 14th and 15th centuries. Basically, each one a unique creation crafted by a gunsmith...

Making bullets for a muzzleloader isn't that complicated. It's not quite unskilled labor, but it's close to it. Arrows, OTOH, require greater skill to craft to ensure that they are tipped and fletched properly, fly true, et cetera.

Crafting Bullets:

0. Lead is a dangerous poison. Protect your eyes, breath and hands. - However, this is something people in the Middle Ages probably didn't know about or concern themselves with.

1. Clean and lube the mold/s*. You get it wrong and the bullets will be deformed. - Multiple bullets can be cast at the same time, with no significant increase in production time compared to making just one bullet (other than requiring multiple molds). *Mold/s aquired from same gunsmith that crafted the firearm - and most likely/preferably, matched to the weapon.

2. Melt lead to proper temperature (about 620° F - can be done with a simple campfire). You get it wrong and the bullets will crack or warp.

3. Remove lead slag. You get that in the bullets and they will be useless.

4. Set the bullets down to cool. You need to be careful or they will warp.

5. Open mold to remove shot. (added by luckless)

6. Snip spur and finish round. (added by luckless)

7. Lube the bullets by soaking in a container of beeswax and grease or something similar. This usually takes a whole night.

Fumble any stage and your bullets will be wildly inaccurate. Also, mold making itself takes some skill.

The whole thing is like a skill challenge.

And you need all the material that that requires. Longbow arrows are easy by comparison.

I'd have to agree with Mark here, and disagree with the above...no disrespect intended, but the above is significantly simpler than the following process

Crafting Arrows:

1. Buy or make mold for arrowheads - or buy pre-made arrowheads (ignoring steps 2-6).

2. Melt Iron or Steel to proper temperatures (Iron 2800° F, more for Steel - both require nearly five times the temperature required for lead and cannot be accomplished with a campfire - probably requires a forge/bellows). - Multiple arrowheads can be made at once (the same as bullets), but each shaft and fletching must be individually crafted.

3. As with bullets, skim off impurities from molten metal.

4. Properly cool. Even more so than bullets, warping will completely ruin the arrowhead and make it useless for an arrow (it won't fly straight). Cooling too fast will make it crack, and also make it useless for an arrow.

5. Remove arrowhead from mold

6. Trim spurs and defects.

7. Sharpen

8. Find and cultivate proper wood for arrow shaft. (Any hardwood will work in a pinch, at least for a couple of uses - but for a proper, reuseable arrow, Yew should be used to avoid excessive bending and warping with use.)

9. Properly cure the wood. If the wood is too green or wet, the arrow will be too flexible. If the wood is too old or dry, it may crack or snap when shot.

10. Cut and Carve the arrow shaft. If mass producing for a military unit, a standard length is acceptable. If for a specific archer/bow, the length should be matched to the draw distance of the specific archer and bow. The shaft must be carved to be straight and true. Any warping or bending will make the arrow essentially useless as an accurate weapon.

11. If meant to be reused, treat the finished arrow shaft properly (oil or varnish), so as to protect it from environmental influences (mostly warping due to moisture). For immediate use and limited reuse, ignore this step.

12. Aquire suitable feathers for fletching (three "matched" feathers).

13. Trim feathers, retaining central shaft and one complete side of the feather.

14. Attach feathers to end of arrow shaft with either glue (need to purchase or make yourself), thread (preferably silk), or both. - Feathers must be attached in a consistent manner (either straight, or angled to the same degree to produce spin) so that the arrow flies true (doesn't "wobble").

15. Attach arrow head to arrow shaft. This requires notching the end of the shaft without causing the entire shaft to crack or split. Insert arrowhead into the notch and secure with wire/sinew, glue, or both. (Also requires aquisition or production of wire/sinew, and/or glue.)

16. Balance the arrow (can be done by trimming the arrow head to decrease weight at the front of the arrow, or adding weight to the rear of the arrow - most likely lead - follow the procedures for making a bullet to produce lead weight...).



I would say that making bullets is a relatively simple process that just about anyone could accomplish, even with minimal training and experience. Typically, bullets were made by the person that owned/used the gun, from a mold made for that weapon. Using the wrong size bullet for your gun could range from unuseable/innefectual, to catastrophic for the weapon and firer.

Properly making an arrow is an art. An art that was significantly more labor intensive, time consuming, and complex than making bullets. It was also an art that had it's own occupation/trade called Fletchers. A trade that could be, and sometimes was, seperate from bowyers (though one could be competent in both). Becoming a Fletcher required an apprenticeship. Gunsmithing was also a trade/occupation, but one did not need to be a Gunsmith in order to make a bullet. As far as I know, there was no independent or seperate occupation/trade for "bullet maker".

 

[El Mahdi]

And the best thing about having firearms in a fantasy world is that you can have them enchanted like you can swords bows and other weapons.

I'd love to see a Paladin wielding a Holy M16. That would be awesome!

How about this Paladin?!


M109A6 Paladin

 

[Mark Chance]

Reskinned bows aren't guns.

I was going to elaborate on the above, but there just doesn't seem to be any point.

I agree there wouldn't be any point since I don't think anyone has suggested that "reskinned bows" are guns. I certainly know I haven't. What I was wondering is why firearms get treated with a degree of realism no other weapon is subjected to, and why this treatment is seen as good cause to exclude firearms from fantasy games.

I get the idea that firearms should be balanced against other weapons via various means, and that properties unique to firearms are a sensible way to do this. But once one starts talking about 5-round reload times, shot ignoring armor bonuses, massive amounts of damage, et cetera, one has (IMO, of course) entered a room best left empty. For example, there is no reason for firearms to inflict oodles of damage. A flintlock isn't appreciably more deadly than a sword. Get hit with either one, and you're in a world of pain (speaking realistically).

But realism in damage isn't usually a game system goal. Instead, abstraction is. Thus, a Pathfinder flintlock pistol could do 1d6 points of damage, or 1d8, or 2d4, et cetera. All of these choices are arbitrary, and when I designed firearm rules for my game, I went with simple, fun, and useable. No ignoring armor bonuses. No misfires. No reload times so long so as to be unuseable as a way of balancing damage higher than anything short of a siege weapon. Et cetera.

In-game use of my rules, interestingly enough for my group, showed that the firearm's biggest disadvantage was its noise. Once those first shots were fired, any chance of catching the enemy off-guard pretty much went out the window. The racket caused by the PCs' firearms alerted guards in a way that no other mundane ranged weapon would.

 

[lordxaviar]

Do you generally like gunpowder weapons in a fantasy setting? Of course if you play steampunk or some other bit more futuristic fantasy, gunpowder is natural addition but how about in a more standard fantasy setting? FR, Greyhawk, Eberron... Do you avoid it at all cost or find it as a flavorful part of the setting?
In my games (D&D 3.5 / Greyhawk) I allow gunpowder weapons as they are in DMG, but it tends to have dire consequences if you natural 1's... Weapon explodes, permanent blindness, you lose fingers etc. When a PC uses a gunpowder weapons, it's more about flavor than having some extra edge. It's a sacrifice really.

I have followed Greyhawk as it grew and Gary said early on that because of the nature of Oerth that gunpowder doesn't work on the planet. When Spelljammer came out, it gave a way for me to have my greyhawk players and Npc visit the other worlds and allowed for "smokepowder" to work while outside the planets actual area. I loved that spelljammer npc's would land on Oerth and think that they were all powerful with there weapons only to have them not work. was very amusing.
So I guess I use them and dont use them, just dependent on the locale.

 

[Werebat]

I'm talking about 3.x, and the renaissance firearms mentioned in the DMG here.

IMO, these weapons are barely a cut above crossbows, not really being worth the XWP feat. I allowed them in my last campaign, which was intended as a sort of "gamma D&D" where the main enemies were Skaven adapted to 3rd Edition, and no one took them. No one used them because mechanically, they were far inferior to bows or even thrown daggers.

In my current campaign, I revised them somewhat. Mechanically, they're almost identical, but I made them simple weapons. Yeah, that means they replace crossbows (once you get the money to buy one), but you know, crossbows suck already, so NBD in my book. The only player who is using them is the one who has chosen to specialize in them, a goblin artificer/rogue who TWFs with magic-enhanced pistols.

They are NOT OP. At all. They're a great choice for this character, and a better choice than hand crossbows, but again -- say it with me now -- crossbows suck. So it's NBD.

Flavor wise, the campaign world is Eberron, and IMO renaissance firearms fit in perfectly in that campaign setting for reasons that should be obvious.

- Ron ^*^