Gunpowder, fantasy and you

Generally speaking, do muskets mix with fantasy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 45.6%
  • No

    Votes: 41 18.1%
  • It's not that simple

    Votes: 82 36.3%

  • Poll closed .
It wasn't even the crossbow - it was the pike.

1e had five million different polearms that lead to the death of feudalism...and not a single gun, because they wanted to ensure feudalism. ;p

If it was a weapon that led to the death of feudalism, why did it persist in eastern europe until for all practical purposes the 20th century?

And for that matter, if 1e - we probably ought to say Gygax - actually excluded guns in order to ensure feudalism, why are we also complaining about the vast number of supposedly anachronistic political structures (including several with no clear parallel in the real world) that coexist in the setting along side feudalism?

And for that matter, if feudalism really was based on the superiority of the individual mounted warrior over the unarmored infantry man, that is to say on the martial utility of the individual aristocrat over the group of less experienced less professional combatants, wouldn't the very existance of levels, hit points, and fireballs be sufficient to ensure a feudal heirarchy regardless of what weapons are available? I mean, we could have phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range, and as long as we've entrenched the notion of the heroic into the basic physics of the world (there are literally heroes and not merely relatively well trained soldiers in superior armor) all other thinigs being equal we'd expect to end up with some sort of heirarchical society.
 

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Did Gygax ever express any opinion of firearms in D&D? Did he ever say why he didn't include firearms in the game?
2010 January « Permastore 4

"Gary Gygax stated, “Gunpowder and explosives will not function on the World of Greyhawk.” He also disallowed firearms in AD&D game worlds in general in the AD&D original edition DMG, page 113 (“Transferral Of Fire Arms To The AD&D Campaign”) and in a letter to DRAGON Magazine, in issue #66, page 4 (“Out on a Limb: Gary on gunpowder”). The latter was in response to an article by Ed Greenwood in issue #60, page 24: “Firearms: First guns were not much fun.”"

But here's is an interesting point:

"Ed points out (correctly) that Gygax himself seems to have allowed firearms into his own GREYHAWK campaign, despite Gygax’s protestations to the contrary."
 

Did Gygax ever express any opinion of firearms in D&D? Did he ever say why he didn't include firearms in the game?

He expressed a lot of anti-firearm sentiment while simultaneously adding the arquebus to Unearthed Arcana and having multiple pc/npcs from Greyhawk that wielded guns (Murlynd's "starwheels" for one example).
 

And for that matter, if 1e - we probably ought to say Gygax - actually excluded guns in order to ensure feudalism, why are we also complaining about the vast number of supposedly anachronistic political structures (including several with no clear parallel in the real world) that coexist in the setting along side feudalism?

That's a misunderstanding.

AD&D DMG said:
While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history
and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more
modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well. Within its
boundaries all sorts of societies and cultures can exist, and there is nothing
to dictate that their needs be Feudal European.

And

p.89 said:
Government Forms:
AUTOCRACY - Government which rests in self-derived, absolute power,
typified by a hereditary emperor, for example.
BUREAUCRACY - Government by department, rule being through the
heads of the various departments ond conducted by their chief admi
n istrators.
CONFEDERACY - Government by a league of (possibly diverse) social
entities so designed as to promote the common good of each.
DEMOCRACY - Government by the people, i.e. the established body of
citizens, whether through direct role or through elected representatives.
DICTATORSHIP - Government whose final authority rests in the hands of
one supreme head.
FEODALITY - Government of a feudal nature where each successive layer
of authority derives power and authority from the one above and
pledges fealty likewise.
GERIATOCRACY - Government reserved to the elderly or very old
GYNARCHY - Government reserved to females only.
HIERARCHY - Government which is typically religious in nature and
generally similar to a feodality.
MAGOCRACY - Government by professional magic-users only.
MATRIARCHY - Government by the eldest females of whatever social
units exist.
MILITOCRACY - Government headed by the military leaders and the
armed forces in general.
MONARCHY - Government by a single sovereign, usually hereditary,
whether an absolute ruler or with power limited in some form (such as
the English monarchs, limited in rule by the Magna Carta).
OLIGARCHY - Government by a few (usually absolute) rulers who are coequal.
PEDOCRACY - Government by the learned, savants, and scholars.
PLUTOCRACY - Government by the wealthy.
REPUBLIC - Government by representatives of an established electorate
who rule in behalf of the electors.
THEOCRACY - Government by god-rule, that is, rule by the direct
representative of the god.
SYNDICRACY - Government by a body of syndics, each representing
some business interest.

This listing is by no means exhaustive, and you should feel free to use
other forms, or invent your own, as the needs of your particular campaign
direct.

Gygax has simply proposed that in Greyhawk, the dominant social structure is feudalism.
 

If it was a weapon that led to the death of feudalism, why did it persist in eastern europe until for all practical purposes the 20th century?

Because things die slow, especially in less developed areas.

And for that matter, if 1e - we probably ought to say Gygax - actually excluded guns in order to ensure feudalism, why are we also complaining about the vast number of supposedly anachronistic political structures (including several with no clear parallel in the real world) that coexist in the setting along side feudalism?

Someone else has answered this.

And for that matter, if feudalism really was based on the superiority of the individual mounted warrior over the unarmored infantry man, that is to say on the martial utility of the individual aristocrat over the group of less experienced less professional combatants, wouldn't the very existance of levels, hit points, and fireballs be sufficient to ensure a feudal heirarchy regardless of what weapons are available? I mean, we could have phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range, and as long as we've entrenched the notion of the heroic into the basic physics of the world (there are literally heroes and not merely relatively well trained soldiers in superior armor) all other thinigs being equal we'd expect to end up with some sort of heirarchical society.

Uh, no.

If anything the existance of fireballs would demolish feudalism. It was destroy it. There would be no medieval warfare, and kings would die like chumps left and right. Invisibility means there is no precaution against assassins. Cloudkill and the ability to literally summon food and water ends the concept of a prolongued siege. A single wildshaping druid can more or less demolish a whole supply caravan.

That's the problem. People want firearms to make drastic changes that they never did in the first place, but don't want magic to make the massive changes they very well would.
 

If anything the existance of fireballs would demolish feudalism. It was destroy it. There would be no medieval warfare, and kings would die like chumps left and right. Invisibility means there is no precaution against assassins. Cloudkill and the ability to literally summon food and water ends the concept of a prolongued siege. A single wildshaping druid can more or less demolish a whole supply caravan.

I should think D&D rules would lead to a variant form of feudalism; what a scholar might call "herocracy" and what TvTropes calls "Authority Equals Asskicking." In essence, authority would correlate strongly with character level, simply because low-level characters are too fragile to survive an attack by a spellslinging assassin. Even a high-level bodyguard offers little protection.

From there, a feudal-style system of vassalage is the obvious next step. Let's say you're the king, a 15th-level character. Who are you going to put in charge of administering your duchies? Why, a bunch of 10th-level characters, naturally; you don't want them getting assassinated. When it comes time to go to war, who are you going to call up? That same gang of 10th-level badasses. And they'll call up the 5th-level badasses they use to run their baronies. Oh, sure, you'll all bring along some 0-level chumps for cannon fodder and garrison duty, but the super-powered ruling class will dominate warfare.

Obviously, the major difference between this system and real-world feudalism is the lack of inherited titles, depending on to what extent "ability to reach high level" is a heritable trait. (And castles are going to be different; how different will depend on the frequency of high-level mages and magic items. In a low-magic world, they'll be similar to real castles with a few bells and whistles added, like internal checkpoints against invisible spies. In a high-magic world, the castle's defenses will be primarily magical rather than physical.)
 
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Because things die slow, especially in less developed areas.

Viola, we've explained the persistance of feudalism despite guns, and also despite pikes, longbows, or crossbows. That would seem to argue against your point.

Someone else has answered this.

Rather, someone else quoted the very sections of the DMG I was thinking of when I made the statement. I'm not sure if thats an 'answer' so much as a validation. Clearly Gygax (or anyone else) didn't exclude guns in order to ensure feudalism. We have no evidence of it.

Uh, no.

If anything the existance of fireballs would demolish feudalism. It was destroy it. There would be no medieval warfare, and kings would die like chumps left and right. Invisibility means there is no precaution against assassins. Cloudkill and the ability to literally summon food and water ends the concept of a prolongued siege. A single wildshaping druid can more or less demolish a whole supply caravan.

So? So all this would mean is that magicians and druids would be drafted into the medieval heirarchy in some fashion. Moreover, why would kings die like chumps left and right? Under or new model, kings aren't merely guys who can afford nice armor, but 10th level fighters (or whatever arbitrarily high level). Kings and their peers are the only guys who can survive the fireballs or cloudkills! If anything, magic enshrines if not the reality of medieval warfare, then at least the mythic concept of it - war waged or at least determined by a small unit of heavily armored elite warriors. If the large standing army is obseleted by cloudkill or fireball, then by your own argument why would pikes and crossbows lead to the dominance of monarchies fielding large standing armies of professional mercenarcies? Perhaps the ability to summon food and water ends the concept of a prolonged siege, but only if the beseiged parties are a small elite group thus able to feed themselves. This doesn't in fact however 'end medieval warface' - it creates the necessity of it. After all, it was the far east where we saw 'castles' normally reduced primarily by seige. In the West, seigecraft was developed into the art of reducing walls to prevent a long seige precisely because the trebuchet and the cannon rendered destruction of the walls practical AND castles were already so successful at resisting being starved out anyway in part because they often had garrisons of a few dozen anyway. So what if we add Earthquake to the list of seigecraft techniques? We are already anticipating a short seige under the Western medieval model anyway.

That's the problem. People want firearms to make drastic changes that they never did in the first place...

Whoa there. Just because I don't believe that weapons led to the end of feudalism, doesn't mean that I think firearms didn't cause drastic changes in society.

but don't want magic to make the massive changes they very well would.

It's an open question exactly what the impact of magic would be, and the answers you get depend heavily on campaign assumptions. Certainly there would be some impact, but I'm not prepared to say in general 'this is wrong' any more than I'm prepared to say that the existance of pikes, crossbows, longbows, or rifles ends feudalism. Pakistan's rural regions have effectual feudalism to this day, right down to the guy who mills your grain also being your tax collector, and it has a coexisting rifle based militia culture that is in the USA associated (for historical reasons) with democracy. I'm very hesitant to draw easy inferences that social change is due solely or even primarily due to introduction of particular technologies. And frankly, I think if your reading in medieval history is more modern than Charles Oman, you aren't going to have that point of view anyway.
 

2010 January « Permastore 4

"Gary Gygax stated, “Gunpowder and explosives will not function on the World of Greyhawk.” He also disallowed firearms in AD&D game worlds in general in the AD&D original edition DMG, page 113 (“Transferral Of Fire Arms To The AD&D Campaign”) and in a letter to DRAGON Magazine, in issue #66, page 4 (“Out on a Limb: Gary on gunpowder”). The latter was in response to an article by Ed Greenwood in issue #60, page 24: “Firearms: First guns were not much fun.”"

But here's is an interesting point:

"Ed points out (correctly) that Gygax himself seems to have allowed firearms into his own GREYHAWK campaign, despite Gygax’s protestations to the contrary."

Thanks for the link, interesting read. My formative D&D experiences were heavy with Tinker Gnomes, Spelljammer and Giff, which is probably why I'm pro-firearm.

Does anybody know why Gygax disallowed firearms?
 

Viola, we've explained the persistance of feudalism despite guns, and also despite pikes, longbows, or crossbows. That would seem to argue against your point.

What? My point is that guns don't change the entire world just by existing. This only proves my point.

You...you can't take my argument and suddenly claim it as your own when you end up being wrong. Debate doesn't work that way.

So? So all this would mean is that magicians and druids would be drafted into the medieval heirarchy in some fashion. Moreover, why would kings die like chumps left and right? Under or new model, kings aren't merely guys who can afford nice armor, but 10th level fighters (or whatever arbitrarily high level).

First off I'm breaking this into multiple points because goddamn son, paragraphs.

Because then rulership is no longer based on heredity, which was an absolutely enormous part of medieval life and what kept the class structure so tightly wound up in the first place. Changing that to a meritocracy changes a lot.

Kings and their peers are the only guys who can survive the fireballs or cloudkills! If anything, magic enshrines if not the reality of medieval warfare, then at least the mythic concept of it - war waged or at least determined by a small unit of heavily armored elite warriors.

That's...that's not how warfare works. That's never how warfare worked. not even on the "mythical" level. Jesus, come on.

If the large standing army is obseleted by cloudkill or fireball, then by your own argument why would pikes and crossbows lead to the dominance of monarchies fielding large standing armies of professional mercenarcies? Perhaps the ability to summon food and water ends the concept of a prolonged siege, but only if the beseiged parties are a small elite group thus able to feed themselves.

I don't even know what your point is at this point. You are literally babbling.

This doesn't in fact however 'end medieval warface' - it creates the necessity of it. After all, it was the far east where we saw 'castles' normally reduced primarily by seige. In the West, seigecraft was developed into the art of reducing walls to prevent a long seige precisely because the trebuchet and the cannon rendered destruction of the walls practical AND castles were already so successful at resisting being starved out anyway in part because they often had garrisons of a few dozen anyway. So what if we add Earthquake to the list of seigecraft techniques? We are already anticipating a short seige under the Western medieval model anyway.

Then - just as my point stated - medieval warfare collapses.

Whoa there. Just because I don't believe that weapons led to the end of feudalism, doesn't mean that I think firearms didn't cause drastic changes in society.

Not the changes people like to think it brought about. not the changes listed in this very thread, where people stated "I don't have guns because I like having knights."

It's an open question exactly what the impact of magic would be, and the answers you get depend heavily on campaign assumptions. Certainly there would be some impact, but I'm not prepared to say in general 'this is wrong' any more than I'm prepared to say that the existance of pikes, crossbows, longbows, or rifles ends feudalism.

You can talk to God in D&D. Are you really going to tell me that would have no effect at all in a medieval world? I mean hell, you literally just eliminated religious warfare. There's no question on who's god exists and who's doesn't. In fact, there's no moral ambiguity at all!

"Hey those guys on the other side of the desert worship a different god, let's...! Wait, detect alignment says their clerics are good aligned. Hey, God? Is everything chill there? It is? Ok, yeah, we cool."

Pakistan's rural regions have effectual feudalism to this day, right down to the guy who mills your grain also being your tax collector, and it has a coexisting rifle based militia culture that is in the USA associated (for historical reasons) with democracy. I'm very hesitant to draw easy inferences that social change is due solely or even primarily due to introduction of particular technologies. And frankly, I think if your reading in medieval history is more modern than Charles Oman, you aren't going to have that point of view anyway.

Once again, you are arguing my point for me, that guns would not have the huge social changes people think they do.
 

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