Guns as the weapons of the Elite

[TerraDave]

Elite warrior societies tend to develop whenever a weapon is expensive and requires lifetime devotion to gain useful degrees of skill in. For example, the European Knight required equipment worth about one million dollars in modern terms, and spent 14 years training to master the mounted lance. The Spartan Hoplites had to master formation drill with the long pike and shield. The Japanese samurii is most commonly associated with swordmastery, but also mastered such demanding skills as mounted archery and wielding a halberd from horseback.

Mastery of the musket as an elite weapon would be highly unusual, and would depend on the ability to control the technology to a very high degree. A peasant militia suddenly finding itself in the possession of muskets might not be an actual threat to a well drilled aristocracy of musketeers, but individually outside the level of armies meeting armies a group of peasants with muskets is a series threat to any aristocrat. Note that the same wouldn't be true of a Samurii or Knight who suddenly finds himself beset by a small group of peasants that have acquired arms. The difference is that the Samurii or Knight got really huge dividends in skill from that lifetime of training, but with firearms the marginal returns on additional training get smaller much quicker.

SNIP

I think that it would be in theory possible to have such a society, but it would be really brittle because the society is based around a social structure that the technology just doesn't really support. A single Knight could effectively face a dozen or so unarmored peasants with improvised weapons. A single Musketeer just can't, if only because he can't reload fast enough to prevent himself being overrun. A force of Musketeers with early muskets could probably not face off against a force several times its size armed with bows and other 'primitive' weapons if that was the only advantage that they had.

Yes, it seems a little backwards. The samuria are a good example of a martial elite defining itself by its non-use of firearms.

But once things start to be tweaked--only certain alchemist can make gun powder--sure, anything is possible.

 

[GlassJaw]

I have thoughts of running a dark steampunkish-type game in which guns do exist but are also highly illegal and are used for military purposes only. Because they are relatively easy to use and extremely deadly (at least to commoners and mooks), the powers that be strive to keep them out of the citizen's hands, although more to keep than suppressed than for their own safety.

 

[Stormborn]

Great discussion, thanks everyone for contributing. The more I think about the more I think that maybe we have to deal with a kind of gun-analog, something like a gun but not a gun. In Iron Kingdoms firearms aren't based on blackpowder, but a binary alchemical compound that works far differently from our worlds weapons. Maybe something like that would work. Or even a weapon that just simply didn't work in the hands of the wrong person. Items that required a magical heritage to activate, one not found in the pesants.

Of course the further we go along that line of though the further we get from the feel of my original idea. But that idea is still fairly ill defined, so there may be a way for it to work.

Please, let's keep the thread rolling. Maybe looking at some alternatives, as have already been described, to gunslinger warrior caste.

 

[Ace]

I coule only see firearms remaining weapons of the elite if they required a special process to fire ( have to use a 0-level spell slot for example) or if the ammunition was almost prohibitive in cost.

Good approach. In one campaign concept I was playing with guns were powered by Glass Alchemical Shells -- These would work for anyone but they were expensive -- I used cost as a limiter. It wouldn't impact PC's much but it kept the number of rifle units low

Also this allowed me to have fast loading break open guns and the like and not worry about the 3 rounds it takes to reload and fire a musket

I set the price at 1sp per max point of damage -- 1/4 of that to make. Thus a pistol round was 8sp. It would cost 1600SP plus the guns cost just for training and probably 400-800sp per month (40 to 80 GP) just to keep up skills. A gun cost IIRC 10GPx hands per point of maximum damage. A Pistol was 80GP -- also since they were typically Masterwork make it 250 GP This made guns strictly an Elite tool.

Figure costs this way -- 100 riflemen with a good Rifle (MW 2d6) is 40,000GP for the rifles -- plus a breastplate each 10000-- plus buckler 1000 + Swords 1000 + Two hundred rounds training 24000 -- plus kit 2400 divided by 4 (wholesale costs) is 19100GP -- call its 20,000 with waste fraud and abuse --- 20,000GP for one hundred men -- In addition to salary costs there is a reoccuring ammo cost of 60GP per man -- ouch!


By comparison -- Pole Arm infantry cost about 100 per man -- you can get at least 40 times (wholesale costs) the number of men and have a much lower reoccuring cost

Archers require more training but cost maybe 200 per man (50 wholesale) so archers cost 1/4 that off gunmen and have lower maintance costs (about 1/10 or less)

This means that Elite Units will be magic'd up Heavy Cav or Gunslingers -- or high level adventurer types

Oh yeah I did have a Dwarf made gatling gun or two guarding the palace though -- Anti Magic Field + Gatling = much fun

 

[The_Universe]

Great discussion, thanks everyone for contributing. The more I think about the more I think that maybe we have to deal with a kind of gun-analog, something like a gun but not a gun. In Iron Kingdoms firearms aren't based on blackpowder, but a binary alchemical compound that works far differently from our worlds weapons. Maybe something like that would work. Or even a weapon that just simply didn't work in the hands of the wrong person. Items that required a magical heritage to activate, one not found in the pesants.

Of course the further we go along that line of though the further we get from the feel of my original idea. But that idea is still fairly ill defined, so there may be a way for it to work.

Please, let's keep the thread rolling. Maybe looking at some alternatives, as have already been described, to gunslinger warrior caste.

You can have an elite caste with mundane gunpowder - they just have to be REALLY willing to enforce their elite status, by punishing/eliminating others who encroach on their bailiwick. It may not be a "natural" elite like the mounted knight, but surely you could justify an artificial elite much like the Samurai (except imagine that the samurai, rather than mastering the sword, focused their energies on the gun).

To take that one step further (but still keeping the technology itself mundane), "combination" weapons might be the order of the day. A long musket with a halberd's blade, or a gun/axe combination might be the weapon of the elite. Even better, you can take the route Henry VIII of England did, and have them use guns built into medieval heraldric shields....

 

[Stormborn]

You can have an elite caste with mundane gunpowder - they just have to be REALLY willing to enforce their elite status, by punishing/eliminating others who encroach on their bailiwick. It may not be a "natural" elite like the mounted knight, but surely you could justify an artificial elite much like the Samurai (except imagine that the samurai, rather than mastering the sword, focused their energies on the gun).

Yeah, however I want the elite to be suitable for PCs, and a violently oppressive society just isn't going to go over well with my group. On the other hand, if there is a reason that the society needs to keep gun limited, and not just the obvious ones, it might be interesting to see what would happen with a group of young upstart PCs who buck the system.

 

[Hand of Evil]

It is not just the elite, it is protectionism (SP), the powerful in control and keeping a part of the population.

 

[The_Universe]

Yeah, however I want the elite to be suitable for PCs, and a violently oppressive society just isn't going to go over well with my group. On the other hand, if there is a reason that the society needs to keep gun limited, and not just the obvious ones, it might be interesting to see what would happen with a group of young upstart PCs who buck the system.

Well, arguably, keeping the terrible weapons of blackpowder out of the hands of commoners (and thus keeping war a problem/responsibility of the elite, rather than one of large conscripted armies) can certainly be argued to be a very good thing. Ultimately, just like almost all laws, it's there for the protection of the people it limits.

As others have mentioned, gunpowder weapons ultimately lead to passage of war from the bailiwick of a relatively few "elites" in conflicts that ultimately have little effect on the surrounding populace and their lands, into the realm of earthshakingly large armies of conscripted commoners.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

If you wanted to bring it forward a bit to modern guns, an elite based around the Gun-Kata of Equilibrium would work quite well.

That's precisley what I thought of.

If for no other reason than that if you have an elite you have time to train them and develop something like the above.

Really really wonky firearms and supportive technology for the same are the other things that are likely to develop.

The Draka stories might be another interesting place to look.

It could also work if you made the elite master mechanics as well as fighters so that they were the only ones with the skill and education to put a really good gun together.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, arguably, keeping the terrible weapons of blackpowder out of the hands of commoners (and thus keeping war a problem/responsibility of the elite, rather than one of large conscripted armies) can certainly be argued to be a very good thing. Ultimately, just like almost all laws, it's there for the protection of the people it limits.

As others have mentioned, gunpowder weapons ultimately lead to passage of war from the bailiwick of a relatively few "elites" in conflicts that ultimately have little effect on the surrounding populace and their lands, into the realm of earthshakingly large armies of conscripted commoners.

If it's all the same to you, I think I'll live without Kings and the laws that they pass for 'my protection' anyway. Oh, and if its not the same you, I think I'll retain my right to appeal to the last argument of Kings anway.