D&D 5E Guns with a kick! Effect on game world?

[Dit464]

I would like to point out that guns of the time period before they used brass shells would jam a bit less than half of the times they were fired and took about a full minute to reload. Sure there are the exceptions of multi barreled guns or different types of shot (blunderbuss, grenade rifles, etc.) but most soldiers still used bows and crossbows solely for the fact that they took a few seconds to reload and never jammed or exploded on them.

Barring the ridiculousness of forcing a character to spend a full 10 rounds reloading their single shot musket or spending double the amount of gold to have a firearm with two barrels or multiple pistols. An easier solution could be that the lower tiers of all armor aren't particularly useful at deflecting or stopping a bullet, but the higher tiers are made with techniques such as layering and the geometry to deflect or stop bullets from penetrating (Realism without ridiculousness). That way you don't make everyone throng to Dex or make heavy armor/bows and crossbows obsolete.

Guns although more expensive are more powerful in the early levels and then level out with bows and arrows (attack-roll wise) but would probably do more damage over their career.

How I would implement firearms a campaign
The damage type would either be piercing or bludgeoning whichever fits the setting

Long Rifles
-2d8 (4d8 if Critical)
-Range 200/800
-Long Rifles have the Heavy, Two handed, and Loading Property
-Price 100gp

Pistols
-1d10 (2d10 if Critical)
-Range 60/150
-Pistols have the Light and Loading Property
-Price 50gp

Blunderbuss
-2d10 (3d10 if Critical)
-Range 10/20
-Blunderbuss have the Heavy, Two handed, and Special properties
-Special: Firing a blunderbuss at an enemy within 5 feet does not impose disadvantage on the attack roll, however loading this weapon takes 10 bullets per shot
-Price 80gp

Bullets- the manufacturing of bullets takes 1 pound of lead per 10 bullets if gunsmithing tools are used
Price- 5gp per 20 bullets

Gunsmith's Tools- Similar to Smith's Tools but specifically pertaining to the making of ammunition and parts for firearms

Of course the prices of the firearms and bullets can be altered to fit the availability of technology and firearms. I simply prefer pseudo-modernity via magical technologies over natural scientific breakthroughs.

(Optional Rules that could be implemented for niche characters and setting)

• Critical Fails render the the gun unfireable for 1d4 rounds.
• Firearms have the "Delayed Loading" trait and prevent using Reactions if the character decides to load the weapon.
• Firearms with multiple barrels cost x2.5 more than a single barreled firearm per barrel- does not include the blunderbuss they become really OP with more barrels
• Criticals sustained by firearms cause a -2 in AC for ranged attacks until the armor is repaired.
• Pistolero Feat.- Multiple Hand pistols can be fired in an action, as opposed to the normal firing of 2 pistols in a turn, 4 pistols can be fired if the user has sufficient pistols on his person.

 

[Unwise]

Regarding the OP about guns ignoring armor, I have a simple rule that barring anything unusual, guns treat all ACs as 15 max.

- It discourages full armor when you know you are going to face guns, why bother with plate if fighting musketeers? This mirrors a historical shift in progress pretty well
- Firearms are simple weapons, this combined with the 15AC thing, means that they are the tools of choice for farmers and militias who are not very skilled.
- There is not a huge difference between some chump wielding a rifle and a badass warrior. This also mirrors a historical shift pretty well.
- Reload times on cheaper weapons mean that martial PCs are often better off with longbows or crossbows as their main ranged attack, this mirrors the historical era well, when firearms are for use before you close with your saber or rapier.
- Extreme expense of easily reloaded ones make them akin to magical items in rarity

 

[Dit464]

- It discourages full armor when you know you are going to face guns, why bother with plate if fighting musketeers? This mirrors a historical shift in progress pretty well.

I have to disagree, Armor changed vastly when firearms were introduced to the world, after all it was a weapon that rendered centuries of work useless.

Armor stopped being worn mainly from the changes of the amount of powder used, a rifle would easily pierce metal armor and since they could be fired from a very long distance technically brought heavily armored combatants to a disadvantage, pistols could very easily glance off the armor, even more so with the changes made to armor since the introductions of firearms.

Or even more detrimental was the conversion from ball type ammunition as opposed to the primitive version of rifle bullets and rifling in barrels, giving the spin increased the penetration of the bullet.

You know some musketeers wore steel armor, to protect them not only from swords, but bullets from pistols.

 

[Unwise]

You know some musketeers wore steel armor, to protect them not only from swords, but bullets from pistols.

I'm not quiet sure what you are disagreeing with as the post seems to be talking about heavy armor getting discouraged due to the armor piercing quality of guns. I'm a little confused. Is it that pistols are not as piercing as rifles? I certainly couldn't be bothered modelling that personally, but the OP seems interested in realistic guns.

Yep, breastplates and steel over vitals are great for giving you AC around 15. Looks good to me. That is how I picture musketeers, conquistador and swiss guard style guys, which fits the aesthetic well.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I would like to point out that guns of the time period before they used brass shells would jam a bit less than half of the times they were fired and took about a full minute to reload.

Do you mean failure to fire, rather than jam? A weapon jam is where the casing gets stuck. Which didn't exist prior to brass casings because it literally refers to the casing as part of the problem.

To the OP, it depends on what kind of guns you're using. Medieval armor wouldn't stop any modern firearm round. Maybe platemail would stop a .22 at a distance, and maybe a smaller pistol round like a .380, but that's about it. Plate mail is pretty thin. Also remember it's not the caliber size you need to look at. It's the mass of the projectile and energy behind it. a .223 (5.56mm NATO) round is almost the exact same caliber as a .22. But they function and look much differently. My AR will shoot through a 1/4in thick sheet of hard steel with no problem at all, while my .380 and 9mm barely leaves a mark.

Also, Kevlar will only stop smaller pistol cartridges, and are typically only rated as level II in protection (9mm and up to .357). If you want to stop a higher velocity 9mm (1,400fps or higher) or something like a .44, you need level III, which is pretty darn bulky. The only way to stop a high velocity round (like anything fired from a rifle), you need thick ceramic plates.

That's the simple explanation anyway. It gets way more detailed than this, but I didn't want to bore you all


*Edit* Here's an example from last year, me shooting at a 1/4" thick steel plate

 

[Dit464]

I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with as the post seems to be talking about heavy armor getting discouraged due to the armor piercing quality of guns. I'm a little confused. Is it that pistols are not as piercing as rifles? I certainly couldn't be bothered modelling that personally, but the OP seems interested in realistic guns.

Yes, armor was changed greatly to make guns less effective, guns didn't change that much in comparison (when they coexisted). It is completely realistic to assume a pistol shooting a .22 round (which pierces much easier than the ammo pistols/rifles used when metal and leather armor was around) would pierce less than a .223 round shot from a rifle. Sacrosanct has even provided some photo evidence for us.

Do you mean failure to fire, rather than jam? A weapon jam is where the casing gets stuck. Which didn't exist prior to brass casings because it literally refers to the casing as part of the problem.

Yes I meant failure to fire, I guess I'm just used to saying jam at this point.

 

[Imaculata]

I'm always fond of a brace of pistols a la Pirates of the Caribbean. Seriously, those movies are actually pretty well structured for a D&D game.

That's the bandolier I was talking about earlier. I run a 3.5 campaign, where I allow my players to use the Quickdraw feat to draw and fire multiple loaded pistols, as long as they are wearing them within easy reach, such as with a bandolier. And that's historically how a lot of pirates fought as well. You draw a firearm, fire it, drop the gun, and draw a new gun, etc.

To the OP, it depends on what kind of guns you're using. Medieval armor wouldn't stop any modern firearm round. Maybe platemail would stop a .22 at a distance, and maybe a smaller pistol round like a .380, but that's about it. Plate mail is pretty thin. Also remember it's not the caliber size you need to look at. It's the mass of the projectile and energy behind it. a .223 (5.56mm NATO) round is almost the exact same caliber as a .22. But they function and look much differently. My AR will shoot through a 1/4in thick sheet of hard steel with no problem at all, while my .380 and 9mm barely leaves a mark.

Another example of a pirate era firearm against plate:

[video=youtube;dQfcRLT18IY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfcRLT18IY[/video]

A black powder wheel lock pistol leaves a serious dent in the breast plate, that could be lethal. The wheel lock carbine rifle shoots through the breast plate with ease, leaving a hole from back to front.

 

[Blue]

Actually guys I'm not REALLY looking to make guns more lethal. That might be a side effect of what I'm looking to do though.

What I want is for armor to become (or start to become) more obsolete and to advance technology past the medieval era.

To give it a more renaissance feel.


Realistic was not the right word. I don't give two #$#$ about realism. What I am looking to do is advance things along to a later type time period than medieval.

You could just reskin the armor. Various light armors become things like padded gambesons, medium armors become leathers, and heavy armor becomes chain. Keeps the math good while changing the flavor.

 

[Umbran]

Medieval armor wouldn't stop any modern firearm round.

Cue Danny Vermin: "This shoots through *schools*!"

With respect - who cares? It isn't like we are discussing allowing modern firearms in a game, but sticking with medieval armor forms. Yes, yes, a modern gun will shoot through simple thin steel plate. We know that firearms of sufficient technological advancement will not be stopped by old-style armor. But that modern weapon is matched by glass that will stop small arms fire, and kevlar, composite, and ceramic armors, which go hand-in-hand with the development of the weapon technology. We should be worried about matching technologies from similar periods, not cherry-picked mismatches.

What impact firearms have on a game world is not just a matter of the technical aspects of the weapon, though, but on economics. And D&D is notoriously bad at handling economics - we have copper-and-silver based economies, with adventurers pouring (sometimes literal) tons of gold into local areas, and have to figure out how buying power applies across nations. It is ugly.

In order for this to have impact on a game world, we need entire industries that don't exist in the typical fantasy game world - bulk creation of gunpowder, for example.

 

[Kalshane]

One quick-and-dirty fix, if you're simply looking to discourage armor use, would be to simply give characters a Defense Bonus that doesn't stack with their armor bonus. Or else allow it to stack with armors up to the level you want to allow. (So if you don't want anyone wearing anything heavier than breastplate, any half-plate or heavy armor worn negates the defense bonus.) Say a fighter gets to apply their proficiency bonus to AC, as long as they're wearing a breastplate or lighter. That maxes them out at 18 AC (10+4 for armor +2 proficiency +2 for Dex) at first level (though first level characters generally can't afford a breastplate) which is the same as chainmail and a shield.