D&D 5E [+] Gunslinger Rogue

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I have had this basic idea for a while, and I find I want to flesh it out.

I am also writing an Archer class with a Sharpshooter archetype that fills the same narrative role, but I know a lot of folks prefer new subclasses to new classes, and I think it’ll run really well.

Concept: The rogue archetype is built on the same basic chassis as the Battlemaster Fighter, but with Focus rather than superiority dice.
Since you aren’t adding damage dice (unless using a manuever that does nothing else?), and the rogue has a little more POW in its level 3 than fighter subs do, there is room for a some Arcane Trickster style utility feature, maybe a quick draw or a perception based feature?

The balance comparison here is the Arcane Trickster, who gets Spellcasting and secondary features.

What the rogue brings to the concept: Speed, agility, cunning action generally

What it needs from outside rogue:
Toughness, mostly.

New Feature and Manuevers Ideas:

Quick Draw: you can use a bonus action to reload 1 or 2 light, one-handed weapons with the loading or reload property, without having a hand free. You can also draw a light weapon as part of making an attack.

Blur of Fire: spend 1 focus as an action to deal damage equal to your weapon damage + dexterity modifier + 1/2 your sneak attack dice, rounded up, in a 15ft cone, on a failed Dex save. Creatures in the cone take half damage if they succeed.

Lightning Draw: Make a ranged weapon attack with a light weapon as a bonus action. (No req to have used attack action, so can be done same turn as Dodge or Blur of Fire)

Final feature (name tbd, basically bullet time). Similar to a limited haste spell, in the first round of combat?

The Gods Love Fools: Some sort of extra defensive feature to encourage striding confidently through a field of chaotic fire, guns blazing.

Thoughts?

Just keep it generally positive toward the premise and constructive, pls.
 

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ECMO3

Hero
I think it is awesome and solid. I am assuming you need to use a focus point for all the maneuvers?

The Lightning Draw might be a little OP, but I would really need to see it in play before I judged that. Rogues have so many bonus actions available so there is a high opportunity cost to using it in addition to the focus point.

For Gods love fools, how about - "use a bonus action and focus point to get +10 move, movement doesn't cause AOOs, treat non-magical difficult terrain as normal and add PB bonus to AC until the start of your next turn".
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
At L3 the PC gets as equipment a hand crossbow version of the special 6-shot light crossbow from Out of the Abyss, and knows how to adapt purchased hand crossbows. This special modification requires a lot of maintenance, taking about as much time every day as a Wizard studying his spellbook, per two crossbows. (A not-maintained special crossbow breaks down once all 6 bolts in the magazine are fired.)

At some higher level the PC gets the Crossbow Expert feat as a class feature.

Artificer (and their gadgets) might be more elegant with language than I am here.
 

I have had this basic idea for a while, and I find I want to flesh it out.

I am also writing an Archer class with a Sharpshooter archetype that fills the same narrative role, but I know a lot of folks prefer new subclasses to new classes, and I think it’ll run really well.

Concept: The rogue archetype is built on the same basic chassis as the Battlemaster Fighter, but with Focus rather than superiority dice.
Since you aren’t adding damage dice (unless using a manuever that does nothing else?), and the rogue has a little more POW in its level 3 than fighter subs do, there is room for a some Arcane Trickster style utility feature, maybe a quick draw or a perception based feature?

The balance comparison here is the Arcane Trickster, who gets Spellcasting and secondary features.

What the rogue brings to the concept: Speed, agility, cunning action generally

What it needs from outside rogue:
Toughness, mostly.

New Feature and Manuevers Ideas:

Quick Draw: you can use a bonus action to reload 1 or 2 light, one-handed weapons with the loading or reload property, without having a hand free. You can also draw a light weapon as part of making an attack.

Blur of Fire: spend 1 focus as an action to deal damage equal to your weapon damage + dexterity modifier + 1/2 your sneak attack dice, rounded up, in a 15ft cone, on a failed Dex save. Creatures in the cone take half damage if they succeed.

Lightning Draw: Make a ranged weapon attack with a light weapon as a bonus action. (No req to have used attack action, so can be done same turn as Dodge or Blur of Fire)

Final feature (name tbd, basically bullet time). Similar to a limited haste spell, in the first round of combat?

The Gods Love Fools: Some sort of extra defensive feature to encourage striding confidently through a field of chaotic fire, guns blazing.

Thoughts?

Just keep it generally positive toward the premise and constructive, pls.
What sort of weapons is this class planned to use? Flintlocks or six-shooters from the DMG? Or reskinned crossbows?
Presumably automatically gains proficiency with whatever? Is ammunition expenditure something you track in your games?

How much focus does the class get to spend, and how does it recover?

Quick Draw - This sounds like you're holding a crossbow or flintlock pistol in each hand, and they are immediately reloading themselves? I'm not sure the name fits. - Maybe Cunning Reload if it is riffing off the Rogue's cunning action.

Blur of Fire is like a a half-caster casting Burning Hands with their highest slot. Power level will be dependent upon how focus works.

Lightning Draw - Again, the name sounds a bit off. - Maybe a bonus to initiative, or the ability to take a single shot before you could normally react to a fight? (Surprise round?)

The Gods Love Fools - Your lightning Draw feature currently lets you do this: take the dodge action to not get hit as you stride forward and you get to shoot back as a bonus action.
Alternatively maybe some sort of Stance where you make an Intimidation check as you stride grimly forward and opponents have to oppose it to bring themselves to attack you in the first place?
Actually, the Frightened condition might work, since that makes it likely that your opponents will fire wild rather than actually aiming at you.

Since the subclass is of Rogue, you will probably want some way of reliably activating Sneak Attack in the subclass as well.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
At L3 the PC gets as equipment a hand crossbow version of the special 6-shot light crossbow from Out of the Abyss, and knows how to adapt purchased hand crossbows. This special modification requires a lot of maintenance, taking about as much time every day as a Wizard studying his spellbook, per two crossbows. (A not-maintained special crossbow breaks down once all 6 bolts in the magazine are fired.)
I’m not a fan of very fiddly stuff like this, though I think it would be fun for folks who like stuff like Exandria firearms.

What I’ve done previously for repeating crossbows is a revolving chamber.
EAB81CAD-C4EA-42B1-9961-5C256AA44A8B.jpeg
Like this. But with the chamber running nearly the length of the barrel.

At some higher level the PC gets the Crossbow Expert feat as a class feature.

Artificer (and their gadgets) might be more elegant with language than I am here.
Artificer really should have a gunsmith as well.
What sort of weapons is this class planned to use? Flintlocks or six-shooters from the DMG? Or reskinned crossbows?
Leaving it a little open is best. Include stats for revolver crossbows, and a note that they get firearm proficiency if the campaign has guns.
Presumably automatically gains proficiency with whatever? Is ammunition expenditure something you track in your games?
Up to the DM using it.
How much focus does the class get to spend, and how does it recover?
You realize this is a concept thread, right? You’re kinda critiquing it as if this were a draft of the subclass.
Quick Draw - This sounds like you're holding a crossbow or flintlock pistol in each hand, and they are immediately reloading themselves? I'm not sure the name fits. - Maybe Cunning Reload if it is riffing off the Rogue's cunning action.
Name is for later, doesn’t really matter much to me yet. And it’s up to the player but the base flavor is that you’re reloading one-handed, or otherwise without dropping a weapon.
Lightning Draw - Again, the name sounds a bit off. - Maybe a bonus to initiative, or the ability to take a single shot before you could normally react to a fight? (Surprise round?)
A reaction attack when rolling initiative could be fun, as well.
The Gods Love Fools - Your lightning Draw feature currently lets you do this: take the dodge action to not get hit as you stride forward and you get to shoot back as a bonus action.
Well, no. It lets you kinda do it while making 1 bonus action attack.
Alternatively maybe some sort of Stance where you make an Intimidation check as you stride grimly forward and opponents have to oppose it to bring themselves to attack you in the first place?
Actually, the Frightened condition might work, since that makes it likely that your opponents will fire wild rather than actually aiming at you.
This is more the thing.
Since the subclass is of Rogue, you will probably want some way of reliably activating Sneak Attack in the subclass as well.
Yeah it kinda depends on where the other features land, though. And of course, Arcane Trickster doesn’t have such a feature and still kicks ass.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think it is awesome and solid. I am assuming you need to use a focus point for all the maneuvers?
Yeah. Basically the Battlemaster fighter but no bonus damage die.
The Lightning Draw might be a little OP, but I would really need to see it in play before I judged that. Rogues have so many bonus actions available so there is a high opportunity cost to using it in addition to the focus point.
I figure it’s a little less powerful than Steady Aim in effect, but doesn’t require not moving. Definitely room for adjustment tho.
For Gods love fools, how about - "use a bonus action and focus point to get +10 move, movement doesn't cause AOOs, treat non-magical difficult terrain as normal and add PB bonus to AC until the start of your next turn".
I like that. It feels similar to Bladesong, but more Rogue-style.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Looking at some of the abilities, I actually wonder if it might instead be a Duelist, and be made to work as a sword fighter or gunfighter.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Lightning Strikes, Thunder Rolls. Spend a Grit point before initiative is rolled. You can make a single ranged weapon attack on initiative count 20. This counts as your bonus action for the first round.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Lightning Strikes, Thunder Rolls. Spend a Grit point before initiative is rolled. You can make a single ranged weapon attack on initiative count 20. This counts as your bonus action for the first round.
Do you think that needs to be that limited? IMO if it’s a bonus action and has to be spent when rolling initiative, why not “you can spend 1 focus to ready an attack as a bonus action when you roll initiative.”
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay, I'm gonna work on this a bit more.

From the feedback here and discussions IRL, i think what I'm going to go with is:

Same number of Focus as BM gets superiority dice. Most of the same list as the PHB, but minus the stuff that feels more heavy fighter, and a few new maneuvers.

For the other class features, the things that are essential to the archetype are, IMO:

Quick Draw and reload Other people need time to get their gun out and reload. The Gunslinger never does.

Speed Mostly covered by rogue, but I'll look over the maneuvers and make sure that there are a couple that make you even more mobile. No need for it's own feature.

Dead Aim the ability to, if you'll allow a paraphrased quotation, "aim with my hand, shoot with my mind, and kill with my heart". Related to perception, below, but this one feels like it has to be low level, and thus should probably related to getting sneak attack without sneaking. Maybe it's just the ability to make a perception check against a target and gain the ability to sneak attack them for the next minute? maybe also the ability to ignore light obscurement when making perception checks within 30ft?

Grit Not the rogue's strong suit, and the first thing so far that isn't already partly in the class or normal for the class to get. The gunslinger doesn't go down easy. Could have some ability to gain some THP? Could be it's own feature or a maneuver, tbh.

Perception this one is a bit trickier, but the gunslinger is eagle-eyed, and always ready, always paying attention. Even the drunk gunslinger in a western can dead-aim at someone who says the wrong thing without looking up from their whiskey or lifting the hat that's shading their eyes.

Untouchable Luck The whole walking through the gunfight unscathed thing. Feels higher level, maybe the level 9 feature, maybe a maneuver with a level gate.

Bullet Time Some minor version should be a maneuver, for sure. But then you should be able to really let loose and move like the devil as a high level gunslinger. Maybe the maneuver lets you gain advantage on an attack without sacrificing movement. The capstone gives you the ability to automatically hit or turn a hit into a crit PB/LR?

Just Damn Deadly reroll 1s on sneak attack dice? IDK.

For moves, I like the basic trick shots like disarming strike and trip, etc. For new ones, I'm thinking:
All should cost 1 Focus, ideally.

Deadeye Shot - When you roll at attack against a target you have used your Deadeye feature on successfully, you can spend 1 Focus as a bonus action to gain advantage on the attack roll. If the attack is a crit, you can reroll a number of damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus, and take the better result.

Fear of God - You fire a shot as the dust kicks up, startling enemies and creating openings. As a reaction when initiative is rolled, or when you or an ally rolls an Intimidation check, you fire your weapon. Hostile creatures who can see and hear you must make a wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you. (normal frightened stuff). Frightened targets can repeat the save at the end of their turns.

The Righteous Hand of God - Something against frightened targets

Hell's Comin' With Me - Something semi-leadery, charging in with the posse

The Gunslinger Followed - Endure the elements and avoid exhaustion, or perhaps the ability to unneringly track a single target that you have used Deadeye on successfully.

Defensive Shot - Shoot a missile out of the sky, negating a ranged attack against you or an ally within 30ft of you as a reaction.

Cat Crosses The Courtyard - You make an Intimidation, Deception, or Persuasion, check related to maintaining a confident and cool demeanor, with advantage. (admittedly, the name fits better for a duelist archetype that is less "gunslinger" focused and can be a swordfighter)


Obviously many of those names have to change, due to coming from popular IPs.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Do you think that needs to be that limited? IMO if it’s a bonus action and has to be spent when rolling initiative, why not “you can spend 1 focus to ready an attack as a bonus action when you roll initiative.”
Well, if you ready the attack, wouldn’t it go off on your normal init? The original wording sets it at init 20 - even if you actually get a higher roll or lower.

And it’s spending a resource to go really fast, and only that opening round.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Well, if you ready the attack, wouldn’t it go off on your normal init? The original wording sets it at init 20 - even if you actually get a higher roll.
Easy enough to include an exception.
And it’s spending a resource to go really fast, and only that opening round.
Sure, I just don’t really see why the delay equals speed, I guess. It feels more…careful and tactical, to me.
 




doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
??? Initiative counts down, not up. 20 should be before most folks go - unless I’ve been doing initiative wrong for several years now.
Well I wondered, because I’ve seen it done both ways. (Ie, initiative 20 is either “goes when a character that rolled 20 would go” or “20th in the initiative order” which is used to simply put something at the end of the round)

If you mean “initiative check 20”, why not just as a reaction when you roll initiative?
 

Stormonu

Legend
Well I wondered, because I’ve seen it done both ways. (Ie, initiative 20 is either “goes when a character that rolled 20 would go” or “20th in the initiative order” which is used to simply put something at the end of the round)

If you mean “initiative check 20”, why not just as a reaction when you roll initiative?
That would work as well.
 

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