Gygax's views on OGL

[Ranger REG]

Ok see if I get this right.

D20 products requires the three core books to be able to use it

At minimum, you only require one of the following core rulebooks: Player's Handbook, d20 Modern, or any one of the licensed core game game books (WoT, CoC, SW).

OGL products stands alone, and does not need the three core books or any WOTC product to use it.

You also cannot say "This Product is Compatible with D&D" or "The Rules is based on D&D game."

So a customer could potentially walk into a game store and see the Conan the RPG. He also sees D&D. He decides to buy Conan and then future suppliments for it. He never picks up D&D.

Yep. He could be playing a variation of the D&D rules without knowing.

HOWEVER, this OGL-based game is a licensed product, meaning Mongoose is paying the Howard Estate a hefty royalty payment for use of the famous trademarks. So they pretty much will catch a customer's eyes easily because of a known media brand.

The same could also be said of EverQuest.

The true test of a standalone OGL-based product is a fresh and original brand. Not something known. I think Castles & Crusade would be a good example, although you could put in an argument for Mongoose's OGL Ancient, OGL Cyberpunk, etc.

I think a better way for WOTC would be to charge a license fee for anyone that wanted to make a d20 product.

Perhaps, and it would be an indication of endorsement by WotC, but then we wouldn't have a flood of d20 products as we would with other games. Then-small companies like Mongoose Publishing wouldn't be where they stand now. And games like Conan means you'll have to pay two royalties (Howard Estate and WotC). I don't know if such a company could afford to do that while keeping the price of the book (as it stand, gamers still complain about $30 HC products or 96-page products that cost $20).

Basicaly I agree with some thing Gygax said. Giving your game away for free might not be the best way to go about it.

Maybe, but then having seen some great rules content for the d20 System created from outside the walls of WotC, I doubt that Gygax and his company of game designers would probably be that creative, especially when he is more interested in controlling the direction of his wares. That would have been a conservative approach. I prefer liberal thinking.

 

[Maggan]

No, I wouldn't give Gary D&D back. I've played AD&D since 1E but I like the way it has evolved into 3E. I'm not sure if Gary would have taken it this direction. Who knows?

Well, we will never really know, but Gygax himself thought the best way for AD&D to go forward after 2nd edition was by rereleasing 1st edition, since it had the best rules.

Hmmm... I wonder what would have happened then. Maybe it would have been as successful as 3e, with the same kind of marketing muscle behind it. Hard to tell.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, we will never really know, but Gygax himself thought the best way for AD&D to go forward after 2nd edition was by rereleasing 1st edition, since it had the best rules.

Hmmm... I wonder what would have happened then. Maybe it would have been as successful as 3e, with the same kind of marketing muscle behind it. Hard to tell.

I don't know about 1st edition. All I know is I'm way past the combat matrices, the nonweapon proficiency system, the individual class XP tables, the demihuman multiclassing & human dual-classing, etc. We are already spoiled by what 2nd edition have offered ... which is nothing more than an improved version of 1st edition.

 

[Desdichado]

That's why the release of Unearthed Arcana, Dragonomicon and now Eberron are causing such a stir, these three books represent the first attempts for WotC to expand beyond what they know is safe. I applaud these efforts and consquently these are the only WotC books (well the jury is still out till I actually get and read Eberron) I haven't regretted buying in the longest time.

The books I enjoy and I am moved by are all by third party publishers.

I agree 100% with this sentiment. From WotC so for in the last few months, I've bought only UA and Draconomicon, and Eberron is the only purchase I have from them on my buying schedule.

Of course, my buying is down all around, for several reasons (not least of which is that I'm starting to feel I have much more material than I can ever use) but besides Eberron, everything else I want to buy is third party:

• Iron Kingdoms Campaign Guide
• Iron Kingdoms World Guide
• Conan RPG (when the second printing comes out, presumably sometime Aug/Sept.)
• Black Company book
• Probably Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying (not d20, but done by a famous d20 company, at least.)

 

[Desdichado]

I'm sorry JR but I have to laugh everytime I hear something like this. Me and my buddies had a damn good time playing that "almost unplayable" game for several years..what were we thinking?

I'm JD. JR was shot in the mid-80s.

More power to you. I couldn't stomach even doing more than occasionally flipping through the books during 2e. Reports I had of people who played it were ...inconsistent at best. Lots of rules problems, lots of problems where the rules got in the way of playing, etc. I had no interest in playing a game that wasn't heavily house-ruled, and most of the people I know share that sentiment.

 

[Desdichado]

The true test of a standalone OGL-based product is a fresh and original brand. Not something known. I think Castles & Crusade would be a good example, although you could put in an argument for Mongoose's OGL Ancient, OGL Cyberpunk, etc.

What, like Mutants & Masterminds? A big hit, by all accounts, and swiftly becoming the default for superhero games?

 

[Desdichado]

Well, we will never really know, but Gygax himself thought the best way for AD&D to go forward after 2nd edition was by rereleasing 1st edition, since it had the best rules.

Hmmm... I wonder what would have happened then. Maybe it would have been as successful as 3e, with the same kind of marketing muscle behind it. Hard to tell.

Eh, I doubt it. I mean, really. It wouldn't bring in new players any better than the any other edition of the game, and older players wouldn't have needed to buy it either. Sounds like a hopelessly myopic (and frankly, egotistical) perspective to me. "1e is the only true game. Because I wrote it."

 

[PJ-Mason]

Actually, mr mason, skipping your concern about whether material outside wotc is inferior (since I dont care), isnt this an argument AGAINST the OGL? In other words, if the OGL encourages talent like Sean Reynolds, monte cook to leave and instead of WOTC claiming 85 cents on the pretax dollar of their work (say losing 15 cents due to royalties, salary), due to the free OGL WOTC claims 0 cents as these gentleman make all the dough for themselves! That is a substantial difference in value retention. This is why Im arguing that the OGL (to me) seems to be pushing WOTC to the inexorable untimely rerelease of the core rule books (as it is their only reliable revenue stream).

note: this is not an argument against sean and monte. they are not violating any duties in leaving to capture their own creative revenue streams when the OGL is free. this is an argument about the economics of the OGL from the perspective of WOTC.

LOL. I'm debating about something you don't care about and your debating something i don't care about!

I didn't buy the 3.5 core rule books and unless the 4.0 rules that eventually come out are a real change or upgrade (and maybe not even then!), i sure won't be getting them. So why do i care whether the OGL will kill WOTC or force them to keep putting out refits? There are several D20/Ogl game companies that have proven that they can easily carry the torch. I am a D20/OGL consumer, not a WOTC employee. WOTC turned D&D into a "business first" company, so no one can whine now that the customers have adapted to that colder attitude. Survival of the fittest. WOTC is now just one more D20 company scratching for my gaming dollars.

 

[Razuur]

My perfect world would be with JUST Peter Adkison at the head of WOTC.

Razuur

 

[Sir Elton]

I used to think d20 = D&D but I have since been reprimanded. Many folks on this very site opened my mind (not the ones that attacked me with flame and acid, however).

Nevertheless, I think d20 will never shake loose its close association with D&D for as long as the 3E D&D corebooks remain the primary reference for the d20 system.

I personally would like to see a more *neutral* reference document for d20. I don't know if this is possible, but I think it would help in removing that erroneous stigma that d20 = D&D.

Have you seen the d20 Modern SRD, yet? OR even Guardians of Order's Big Eyes, Small Mouth Anime d20 SRD? Dead, these are new System Reference Documents that break away from the D&D core. I hope you will check them out.