Gygax's views on OGL

[mossfoot]

The problem, however, is that he only games with the material he personally wrote over 20 years ago. That's sorta like a TV marketing exec watching 100 hours of "Howdy Doody" and saying he's in touch with children's programing. That -defines- being out of touch, and it's precisely what is going on.

He started working on Lejendary Adventures in 1995, and to the best of my knowledge he plays L.A. regularly. As for other games, I don't know, but I believe he plays as well as GMs, and for someone else to GM an adventure he wrote... well that would be cheating, wouldn't it?

I'm afraid I don't know Gary as well as I would like, but we have chatted on and off for more than a year. What I do know about him suggests that your statement is based on assumptions and/or hearsay. I'm curious to know where you heard this.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The problem, however, is that he only games with the material he personally wrote over 20 years ago. That's sorta like a TV marketing exec watching 100 hours of "Howdy Doody" and saying he's in touch with children's programing. That -defines- being out of touch, and it's precisely what is going on.

I donn't think that 1995, around when Legendary Adventures was written, was 20 years ago. Is this an example of this new math I keep hearing about?

:\

 

[seankreynolds]

Howdy SKR, Here's the $0.50 question: How many of those 300 WOTC employees work on role-playing on a daily basis? Last I checked CCGs, Magic in particular, were still the sacred cash cows (even with the loss of the Pokemon license and all their recent 'experiments). CCGs keep the company strong in good quarters, and afloat in bad (and keeps the rumor mill flowing here and abroad ).

Unfortunately, your point isn't really relevant. When the bean-counters look at the profitability of each part of the business, they look at how much money each part is making, not how much money each part is making per employee employed in that division. They just say (and note those numbers are just examples and not at all accurate) "RPGs are making $10M a year profit, cards are making $70M a year profit."
The head of each division is trying to make their numbers look as good as possible so when the layoffs come around they can say "We're X profitable, we shouldn't have to lay off anyone."
No division is going to say, "Sure, we bring in ten times the revenue of this other department, so we should factor into our profit ten times the overhead costs of that other department." Or "We have twice as many employees as this other department, so we'll include twice our share of the floorspace/rent portion of the overhead." It just doesn't happen ... nobody volunteers to make their own numbers look lower.

That's why companies apply these costs evenly. And that's why smaller, less-profitable products can be almost worthless to a larger company when they'd be deliciously tasty to a small company.

(I mean, if I wanted to stay at home and write adventures and publish them in PDF, I could probably make a decent living doing so. Writing it myself, getting a friend to edit it for a small cost, using clip art or 3D art I created or a small portfolio of stock illustrations from artists friends I know, typeset it myself, sell online. It would be a lot of work, but almost all of my costs -- other than the initial investment in the typesetting software, which I don't have) are costs I'd have anyway just for living in my apartment: computer, electricity, work space, etc. HR costs? None. Marketing/sales costs? None, I'm the marketing/sales guy. Mailroom employee costs? None, that's me again. Janitorial costs? None, I'm the janitor. And so on.)

 

[JDJarvis]

Marketing/sales costs?
Mailroom employee costs?
Janitorial costs?

Those all cost you as much as you could make if you were producing materials for someone that was willing to pay you to do so.

 

[Desdichado]

That's why companies apply these costs evenly. And that's why smaller, less-profitable products can be almost worthless to a larger company when they'd be deliciously tasty to a small company.

You're in a much better position than me to know how WotC does their accounting, but that's not necessarily true. If they do Activity Based Costing, which is all the rage these days, then costs are specifically binned to the group that incurs them, even the more generic costs like overheads and the like. It's generally considered superior in that it allows you to truly evaluate the costs of a certain line of business without befuddling your numbers with things like general overhead allowances and the like, but at the same time, it's a more difficult process to get a handle on.

It may also be something that's more appropriate to a manufacturing type of operation, which I wouldn't really classify an RPG product as. I wouldn't know; I'm not actually an accountant.

However, regardless of whether or not WotC uses ABC Accounting, your point is still valid. Those overhead expenses don't go away just because you have a fancy new accounting method, you just have a better understanding of who's really the heavy drain on the overheads.

 

[Ourph]

Maybe I need to catch up, but I'm not following this one. Are you saying that 3rd party games are medium quality by default and can't be really high quality?

Yes, I'm saying that IMO the D20/OGL products I've perused (quite a few, over 100 in the last ~2 years I would say) have not been excellent quality, though some of them have been good. None of them have inspired me to spend my gaming dollar. However, I'll admit I'm extremely picky. For the most part I see the market producing two types of "good but not great" material. The first, imaginative, well written stuff that's packaged with a lot of fluff to increase page count and drive up the price to the point that the item is profitable to produce. The second, imaginative, well written stuff that's poorly packaged to keep costs down so that the item is profitable to produce. I've yet to see a well written, creatively inspired product with quality artwork and binding whose content is over 20% "good stuff". Of course, these two types are vastly outnumbered by the oceans of drek being produced.

It's possible that at some point the larger and more successful indie companies will be able to afford to put out the highest quality stuff, but right now doing so just isn't feasible. It would drastically cut profits and isn't really necessary (when your competition is average to good, you only have to be consistently good to stay ahead of the pack, excellence is a waste of resources).

Because I think there are plenty of products on the market that would fly in the face of that logic.

I don't know if my comments rise to the level of logic. Just opinion.

I'm sure the OGL/D20 arrangement has benefited some gamers, maybe even MOST gamers. But it's not really benefited me. :\

 

[Henry]

Those all cost you as much as you could make if you were producing materials for someone that was willing to pay you to do so.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement, but someone who does all three jobs costs one-third what it costs to pay three separate people to do those jobs; therefore, overhead is lower. Besides which, any company with over (what is it? 10? 20?) employees has a whole host of job laws that apply to them that a smaller work force does not - health benefits laws, worker's comp, etc.

The problem, however, is that he only games with the material he personally wrote over 20 years ago.

Gary has stated before, on these forums even, that he has enjoyed playing 3E occasionally, but that he would never DM it. However, he thoroughly enjoys the system he developed for Lejendary Adventures. That's why it's his chief money maker. Troll Lords has contracted him to write new material for Castles and Crusades this year, but only because it's similar enough to AD&D that he doesn't need to do a lot of conversion. They're putting money behind the idea that Gary's name is a big draw enough to make a profit. Time will tell, but I think they're right.

My biggest concern is that he keeps healthy right now, rather than him getting his products out on time. Here's wishing him well.

Is Gaxy Gygar's latest production (Necropolis or somesuch) not D20, 'cos if it is then he is a big hypocrite, slagging off OGL then using it himself.

The OGL/d20 works you've seen Gary's name on were usually co-produced with another writer; Gary writes the "fluff" and the LA stats where applicable, and another writer does the d20 mechanics work. (Of course in some cases both writers contribute the "fluff", but you get the idea).

Necropolis was originally written almost 15 years ago for the Dangerous Journey RPG system.

 

[JDJarvis]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement, but someone who does all three jobs costs one-third what it costs to pay three separate people to do those jobs; therefore, overhead is lower. Besides which, any company with over (what is it? 10? 20?) employees has a whole host of job laws that apply to them that a smaller work force does not - health benefits laws, worker's comp, etc.

Yes you are misunderstanding me. If a person effectively earns $20.00 an hour for writing then it effectively costs that person $20.00 for every hour they aren't writting but are instead mopping up the bathroom, vacuuming the floor, getting paper, running down to the post office/Federal-express, dealing with distributors/sales points, arranging ads and updating a website. Not to mention insurance costs for you yourself should you become injured and or are unable to work (they can be huge for self employed individuals). There are a lot of expenses to being self employed/self publishing that lots of folks don't stop to consider before they jump in.

 

[Desdichado]

Yes, I'm saying that IMO the D20/OGL products I've perused (quite a few, over 100 in the last ~2 years I would say) have not been excellent quality, though some of them have been good. None of them have inspired me to spend my gaming dollar. However, I'll admit I'm extremely picky. For the most part I see the market producing two types of "good but not great" material. The first, imaginative, well written stuff that's packaged with a lot of fluff to increase page count and drive up the price to the point that the item is profitable to produce. The second, imaginative, well written stuff that's poorly packaged to keep costs down so that the item is profitable to produce. I've yet to see a well written, creatively inspired product with quality artwork and binding whose content is over 20% "good stuff". Of course, these two types are vastly outnumbered by the oceans of drek being produced.

It's possible that at some point the larger and more successful indie companies will be able to afford to put out the highest quality stuff, but right now doing so just isn't feasible. It would drastically cut profits and isn't really necessary (when your competition is average to good, you only have to be consistently good to stay ahead of the pack, excellence is a waste of resources).

I don't know if my comments rise to the level of logic. Just opinion.

I'm sure the OGL/D20 arrangement has benefited some gamers, maybe even MOST gamers. But it's not really benefited me. :\

Got it. At least I understand where you're coming from for sure now. Understand it well enough to know that I thoroughly disagree with it, of course!

My favorite d20 products, with the exception of Call of Cthulhu, are not produced by Wizards of the Coast. They've long since ceased to produce anything that I thought was really all that imaginative -- in fact the extremely bland nature of books like the ELH, the original PsiHB, MM2, the Complete Warrior, etc. have been real turn-offs. Their very original splatbooks bring into question their ability to pull off quality mechanics products. And little that I've seen since has dispelled that notion. And even their presentation is lacking; it may be full-color, but I haven't been overwhelmingly impressed with the look or artwork of a WotC book in some time, with the exception of the Draconomicon.

Meanwhile, books like Mutants & Masterminds have full-color, beautiful artwork, great rules, and better presentation than anything by WotC. Book of Fiends and the Monsternomicon may be black and white, but they're my favorite monster books by far, much better than anything by WotC.

So, I guess it's a taste issue. WotC doesn't impress me (as it obviously does you) with inventiveness in particular, but also with their writing quality, their mechanically soundness or their presentation and art.

 

[trollwad]

Is Gaxy Gygar's latest production (Necropolis or somesuch) not D20, 'cos if it is then he is a big hypocrite, slagging off OGL then using it himself.

So GG is one of the founders of our hobby. So what?
He shouldn't be held up as a paragon of D&D development when he is so obviously out of touch with the game as it is now.

Again, please read what he said. He said that OGL was bad for WOTC and ultimately the industry because of quality issues among other things. Therefore, that does not mean he is a hypocrite for doing it.

No one has said he is a 'paragon'. He is not really out of touch. He has said he has played 3.0 or 3.5 just that hed never dm it (too rules heavy, etc.)

Feel free to disagree with him but I just want to correctly represent his views.