H1 and Party Size

[GnomeWorks]

There is a way to downgrade and upgrade any monster, as published in the preview article, deftly named, customizing monsters. This can be used to scale monsters easily to decrease or increase their experience, which is almost all that matters for balancing an encounter.

That's for levels, though.

The descriptor thing (minion, elite, solo) does other things to the critter, and sometimes seems to give the critter other abilities - like the solo dragons, with their insta-breath when bloodied.

Simply moving a solo creature's level around doesn't make it any less of a solo creature, unless you're moving it around significantly - and at that point, the level-moving trick breaks down.

I would also expect that if there were ways to make a critter an elite or a solo, that there would be ways to de-elite or de-solo a creature, as well (just by performing the operations in reverse, though with exception-based design, that may not work).

So if you were running a group of four, you could de-solo a solo dragon, then maybe make it elite twice? Or something along those lines, perhaps.

 

[Mengu]

That's for levels, though.

The descriptor thing (minion, elite, solo) does other things to the critter, and sometimes seems to give the critter other abilities - like the solo dragons, with their insta-breath when bloodied.

Simply moving a solo creature's level around doesn't make it any less of a solo creature, unless you're moving it around significantly - and at that point, the level-moving trick breaks down.

I would also expect that if there were ways to make a critter an elite or a solo, that there would be ways to de-elite or de-solo a creature, as well (just by performing the operations in reverse, though with exception-based design, that may not work).

So if you were running a group of four, you could de-solo a solo dragon, then maybe make it elite twice? Or something along those lines, perhaps.

Solos are designed to be an appropriate challenge against a group of heroes. Whether that group is 4, 5, or 6 the solo should still be an entertaining challenge. However level adjustments may be needed to adjust the difficulty of defeating the solo creature. At least, this is my understanding from what was described of balancing an encounter using the experience value of monsters.

There is nothing that stops a DM from designing an encounter that incorporates a solo with other creatures, or an encounter that presents an elite as a solo encounter, as long as the experience totals are (more or less) equal.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Solos are designed to be an appropriate challenge against a group of heroes. Whether that group is 4, 5, or 6 the solo should still be an entertaining challenge. However level adjustments may be needed to adjust the difficulty of defeating the solo creature. At least, this is my understanding from what was described of balancing an encounter using the experience value of monsters.

There is nothing that stops a DM from designing an encounter that incorporates a solo with other creatures, or an encounter that presents an elite as a solo encounter, as long as the experience totals are (more or less) equal.

And what if it's a 1st-level solo creature?

What then?

 

[Jack99]

Thanks for the response. Though I have to say that this is my first complaint about 4e: its built more for groups with 6 or more people. I can't remember the last time I was in a good gaming group with that many people. It might be easy to round up that many folks at the WotC offices, but around here it can be difficult.

The 5-man group was made because their polls show that this is the most common size of a DND group. 5 man and a DM.

While I understand that you are annoyed, please do realize that when they design, they do design for the majority, not the exception, even if it is exception-based design..

Cheers

 

[GnomeWorks]

While I understand that you are annoyed, please do realize that when they design, they do design for the majority, not the exception, even if it is exception-based design..

And so long as they include the tools to accomodate those of us who don't run a group of 5 PCs, then whatever their baseline assumption is fine.

They could assume a group of 30 PCs, and so long as the tools are available to tone things down to fit my group (or up, if I'm feeling especially absurd), it's fine.

So far, it seems that they're at least making an effort towards doing this. I don't know if what we've seen is complete, but it seems workable enough.

 

[Jack99]

And so long as they include the tools to accomodate those of us who don't run a group of 5 PCs, then whatever their baseline assumption is fine.

They could assume a group of 30 PCs, and so long as the tools are available to tone things down to fit my group (or up, if I'm feeling especially absurd), it's fine.

So far, it seems that they're at least making an effort towards doing this. I don't know if what we've seen is complete, but it seems workable enough.

While the solo monsters can and will pose a few issues, I am fairly confidant that encounters in 4e will be easier to accommodate than in any prior edition. The system seems very robust from the tests that have been run. Of course, the real test won't begin till June 6th.

 

[Lanefan]

It won't take you long to figure out what your group can handle and what they can't...it'll proabaly take a few PC deaths in the trial-and-error phase, but that's what PCs are for, right?

But yes, the 4e assumed party size is 5. Whether that is arrived at by 5 players each running 1 PC, or 3 1-PC players and a couple of NPCs, or 2 players each running 2 PCs and a single NPC, is up to you and your group.

If you've got a 3e-standard group of 4 players, it should be a simple enough matter for you to lob in an NPC to bring the party size up to par.

My question is how well do things scale (and how easy is the scaling) for parties of 6 or 8 or 10 PCs? Our crew often run 2 PCs each so they'll have something to do when one dies or is rendered non-functional for a while, giving an average party size of 8-11 (any edition).

Lanefan

 

[keterys]

For level 1 through 5 solo mobs (ie, the range you'd potentially encounter in the module), 1 level difference downward tends to be worth 125 XP (25 x 5), or 25% to 12.5% of the xp value of the monster.

Given that, if you act like you're downgrading it one level (without actually thinking too hard about it, if it's level 1), by doing the following:

-1 to attack, AC, and all defenses
-Role Based HP (Lurker/Artillery = 30, Controller/Skirmisher/Soldier = 40, Brute = 50)

That's probably close enough, if you feel a need to modify the encounter.

 

[Mengu]

And what if it's a 1st-level solo creature?

What then?

I don't think you need to scale it down for a first level party. Theoretically a 1st level solo will be 500 XP. That's only slightly more than the recommended 400 XP encounter for 4 first level players. They should have no problem taking down a 1st level solo, as long as they have a few daily abilities and action points left. I've run play tests where 5 first level characters went up against 650'ish XP encounters and without too much difficulty, though they did expend a few more resources than they would have in a 500 XP encounter.