Haggling. . .

In our campaign our Master aks me how much I'd like to haggl e(5% off or 10% off or 50%)
Then he sets the target number and tells m ethe tagert number. (it depends on percentage AND value of the itrem)
If i get the DC I get the item for that price, if I fail the rol I don't get the item at all.
SO i try to be careull hwer to haggle and how much.
 

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I've posted this before, and I don't have the hard copy in front of me, so the numbers might not be exact. But anyway, IMC we came up with a haggling system that isn't as exploitable in those ways. It's a lot more rolling than the systems the other people here have suggested, so we end up Taking 10 a lot. I know it looks long, but most of the steps are optional or can be fudged by the DM to keep things flowing.

Here's the idea:

STEP 1: Figure out how much the item is worth. When you're buying from a merchant it's simple, he's done an Appraise check beforehand. When you're selling, he does a quickie Appraise check on the spot (with a higher DC for being rushed). Record the margin of success on the Appraise check for later use; if he failed it's zero. (For convenience, you can pretty much always assume the guy took 10 unless it's really expensive, in which case Take 20 might be more appropriate)
If you want to try to swindle the merchant, do an opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive check to tweak the Appraise result. There are three outcomes:
A> You fail the opposed bluff check: this usually ends the deal immediately, since most people don't appreciate being blatantly lied to.
B> You succeed with your Bluff, but by less than the Appraise check margin: The price isn't changed. He's willing to believe he might be overcharging a bit, but he won't give you a break.
C> You succeed by more than the Appraise margin: each additional point lowers/raises the appraised price by 1% per point of margin (max 20%). Even if he doesn't sell to you, he now thinks the item is less valuable than it was before.

STEP 2: Take your CHA. Pretty easy, huh? Note this is CHA, not CHA Bonus.

STEP 3: If you want to haggle seriously, add the result of an opposed skill roll to Step 2. By default, this might be Diplomacy versus Diplomacy. Depending on the circumstances, the DM could allow either side to replace the skill needed with Bluff, Sense Motive, Innuendo, a Profession skill, a Craft skill, a Knowledge skill, or whatever the DM thinks is appropriate to the situation. But, Diplomacy ALWAYS is an option.
If you want to just do "casual" haggling, skip this step. Effectively this'd be like both sides Taking 10 on the whole thing. When you're shopping for groceries, you won't spend five minutes arguing about the minutae of the product.

STEP 4: Add some optional circumstance modifiers on a per-item basis. Skip this if you want.
If the merchant's race/class/social status conflicts with yours, add or subtract up to 5 points. If his race REALLY hates yours he could refuse service outright, but that's pretty rare.
If this merchant is someone you've bargained with repeatedly, add or subtract up to 2 points to reflect their earlier encounters. Add if it's been a fair relationship, subtract if either side has repeatedly swindled.
If the player actually roleplays out the haggling, give him a few extra points. No more than 2 or 3, though.
If the item is a really specialized item you could add or subtract a few points to reflect its marketability. For example, even though a +5 longsword is in theory worth the same as a +1 ghost touch keen sure striking flaming kukri, one is far easier to sell. Very generic items that everyone wants (Bag of Holding) add up to a +4, while very specific ones (that Kukri) could subtract up to 4.

STEP 5: If the total of steps 3&4 is below 5, he either won't deal with you at all (DM's choice) or he won't allow haggling at all. Buy at 150% of appraised price, sell at 50%.

STEP 6: Take 250% and divide it by the end result of Steps 3-5. This is the Margin. As DM you can feel free to round it to the nearest 5% or something, just for convenience's sake. You don't need to be exact.
When selling to a merchant, he'll pay 100% minus the Margin. When buying from a merchant, he'll charge you 100% plus the Margin.

For example, Bob is an average guy, so his CHA is 10. If all the other modifiers balance out, that means he buys swords at 125% of their "true" value and sells them at 75%. If he sold his new +2 sword (4000 gp) he'd only get 3k from a merchant, and if he wanted to buy it back it'd cost 5k. The remaining 2k is the merchant's profit, to cover storage fees, advertising, security, salesmen, appraisals/magical identification, whatever.

Now, if Bob lets his friend Fred the Paladin do the talking, the Margin might only be 10% (CHA 18 + much better Diplomacy skill puts the result in the 25 range easily, and 250%/25 = 10%). He'd buy at 110% and sell at 90%.

The important thing is the diminishing-returns aspect. Having a phenomenally high CHA won't allow you to sell an item for more than its market value or buy it for less, it'll just reduce the margin to the point where you're not paying much overhead. It also helps to have the high-CHA Diplomacy guy do your negotiating for you.
 

I skimmed over your post Spaz til I saw your name. I remembered that name ... you used that same system when I asked about magical item haggling, a year or two ago :) Unfortunately I lost the document I saved it too, fortunately you re-typed it out for me (though IIR there were some niggling questions I had about it, but I can't remember what)
 

Traps and Trechery covered hagling through a game called truck. It was basically bluff vs. sense motive checks. Whoever wins in/decreases teh price by the amount the roll was won by % of the original price. Maximum 50% price change in either direction. here are some things to remember.

1) A skilled merchant will have max ranks in both bluff and sense motive and probably skill focus with them as well.

2) Not all merchants will haggle.

3) Merchants in a town togther probably mark their goods to avoid the buy here sell there money scam.

This system works very well and in practice I have found that the prices stay the same on average. Then again though I changed all of the phb item prices and do not alllow my PCs access to my new prices on top of that I give them a list of available items when they enter a town and these are the items they must choose from.
 

Azure Trance said:
Unfortunately I lost the document I saved it too, fortunately you re-typed it out for me (though IIR there were some niggling questions I had about it, but I can't remember what)

Well, what I posted above won't be exactly the same as what I had before. We shifted the skill checks around a bit, but the concept is the same: price is appraised value +/- (250/CHA)%, with modifiers thrown in. This was originally intended for magic items, or any "commodity" item that doesn't depreciate. (A pound of gold that's been banged around is still worth full value, while most other goods get less valuable) Items that depreciate work a bit differently.

The key is to keep it simple in execution, only using the full rules if the player wants it. Just ballparking everything works just fine for 99% of the items out there. If you think skill X should have more impact, just change the system to match.

There are a few other things to remember:
> There are some items the merchant simply doesn't haggle on. Some merchants might not haggle at all. For example, a merchant selling a +1 sword knows it's worth 1300gp. If he just wants to unload the thing he might set the price at 1400 and refuse to haggle. If you go into the 99 cent store, it's pointless to try convincing the guy behind the counter to accept 85 cents.
> These sorts of rules are meant for shops, where the customer walks in knowing what he wants and the merchant only gives a little advice. If you want to represent the charismatic huckster in the market, who's trying to convince you that you need his item, there should be more dependence on his CHA than on yours.
 

Why not just use a system similar to influencing NPC attitudes?

Replace the words "Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, Helpful" with "Bargain, Reasonable, Moderate, Pricey, Outrageous"

If the PC wants a chance to haggle, the merchant must first be warmed to the idea with a diplomacy check. DCs are based what the price is now:

Bargain -- DC 50
Reasonable -- DC 35
Moderate -- DC 25
Pricey -- DC 20
Outrageous -- DC 10

If that first step succeeds, then start haggling with opposed Appraise checks, using the same DCs above. If the check succeeds by at least 10, the PC can continue trying to lower the price. If it fails by 10, then the price resets and haggling is over. If it stays within 10, then the price is settled. The DM makes the merchant's rolls in secret.

Modifiers can add to the merchant's rolls depending on the economies of that area, or whatever other factors DM might use. Also consider raising the DC an additional 5 for every 10% that the price drops.

And if PCs abuses their haggling talents, it's likely that merchants will alert other merchants and their DC for haggling will shoot up all across town.
 

I allow the players two options

1. Diplomacy - " this item was taken from the lost tomb of such and such, if will etch a fine price for such good workmanship and the tale it tells" - if the shopkeeer agrees then I give the party 66% (2/3rds) of the item value (instead of the usual sell value of 50%) There is no risk, and a bit of reward.

2. Bluff - " no this item wasn't stolen, I aquired it on from a guy two cities over, her was just getting rsd of it, you'll easy find a buyer for this in your shop... wink, wink," - The shopkeeper get sense motive, if he fails then he'll offer 75% of the items value... but if he makes the opposed roll he thinks something is fishy and offers 25%..

You only get to do this once, and seems to work well in our campaign

You could easily do the same thing with buying stuff... if the guy friendly and diplomatic, yes give him a bit of discount, but no risk if he fails, or is he fast talking and a but shifty, I might believe him, but if I dont then I'm going to rip him off

Mav
 

In my games, haggling gets you 5% extra when selling equipment, for a total of 55% of original price. No skill checks, nothing else influences it. The down side is that it takes you longer, so you can't do it if you're in a hurry.
 

The problem with haggling is the amount of work it requires from the DM.

You really have to know the base price below which the item will not sell. You can be the best haggler in the world but I am not going to sell an item I just bought at a loss unless I need the money to save my life.

Sigurd
 

Merchants will add/subtract ([1d6+2] x 20) percent from the items base cost, depending on if they are buying or selling (a nice random factor to simulate market flucuation). We don't have a hard and fast rule; you can roll with adjustments made based on the situation, or you can play act with me as the merchant and deal accordingly.

Magic items are another matter.
 

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