Half-elves........why no one chooses them?

[werk]

The +2 to Diplomacy is also marginalized in that Diplomacy is apparently the easies skill to get a bonus for (several different synergies, class abilities, and items that effect charisma skills or diplomacy directly)

And the RACIAL bonus STACKS with those.

It is only beneficial if you are already at max ranks for your level, and if you are, then the half elf is superior.

I've never found diplomacy to be a substitute for a feat and/or diverse skills over the course of a campaign. Advantage - human.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And the RACIAL bonus STACKS with those.

It is only beneficial if you are already at max ranks for your level, and if you are, then the half elf is superior.

I've never found diplomacy to be a substitute for a feat and/or diverse skills over the course of a campaign. Advantage - human.

It does stack, but I think Bront is saying that the Human can use her skill points to simulate the +2 bonus in situations where the half-elf cannot afford the skill points to buy all the synergy skills.

For instance, a Telepath who wants Concentration (an absolute must-have), Knowledge Psionics, Psicraft, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) simply can't handle it at level 1, even with 18 Int, unless she's human. And if she is human, since all of these are class skills, she can afford to get all 3 synergies by level 2. The half-elf is forced to either drop a synergy or drop a no-brainer Psion skill (one of the first three).

 

[Particle_Man]

i'm sorry to say that but you're munchkins guys. theory of "hooks" in character's mechanics that help to roleplay it is pathetic. i mean how power attack or precise shot makes your character more alive and help you immerse in your role? are you characters just a sheet of paper with scribbled numbers? how on earth a character without power attack becomes a BURDEN for a party? nonsense.
i guess your favourite football team is the one that won the last championship.

Ok, from now on you only get to play single-classed commoners. Ah, the humble peasant, taking his trusty spear into combat against those pesky housecats. Why, just imagine the roleplaying opportunities!

 

[Orius]

Dex was King back before the Dark Times... before the coming of 3e... before the arrival of the new King, Str.

How is Str king in 3e? Every time I read a favorite stat/dump stat etc. poll or thread, Str is only important with a melee tank, as it always had been. Otherwise, players usually seem to regard Dex, Con, Wis and Int to be more important stats.

 

[Jdvn1]

At mid and high Fighter levels, I think Half-Elf is a better choice for Fighter.

Low-light vision, +2 on some will saves (and they need all the help they can get on will saves), +1 racial bonus on some useful skills they'll likely be using anyway, and the extra language comes in handy...

In exchange for a feat and a skill point/level? Well, a mid or high level Fighter has tons of feats as it is, so one likely wont' make a huge difference at higher levels (which is when some people argue that Fighters run out of feats to take), and bunches-of-skills just aren't his realm anyway.

At the very least, it's an even trade, though the Half-Elf might look better.

 

[Rystil Arden]

At mid and high Fighter levels, I think Half-Elf is a better choice for Fighter.

Low-light vision, +2 on some will saves (and they need all the help they can get on will saves), +1 racial bonus on some useful skills they'll likely be using anyway, and the extra language comes in handy...

In exchange for a feat and a skill point/level? Well, a mid or high level Fighter has tons of feats as it is, so one likely wont' make a huge difference at higher levels (which is when some people argue that Fighters run out of feats to take), and bunches-of-skills just aren't his realm anyway.

At the very least, it's an even trade, though the Half-Elf might look better.

Oh, certainly you could argue that it is a better choice than human for a high-level fighter. But better than a dwarf? I think not

 

[Jdvn1]

Oh, certainly you could argue that it is a better choice than human for a high-level fighter. But better than a dwarf? I think not

Well, it depends on the sort of Fighter you want to go for. In archery, movement is only an issue in that you prefer to keep a distance from things. In that case, the movement hit really hurts a dwarf, and the Fighter won't be using heavier armors to slow down the human or half-elf.

But, my point was really that half-elf isn't a worthless choice. I've seen tons of human fighters, and if those players are willing to say that those are viable builds, then a half-elf fighter is also viable. There's at least one half-elf character concept that certainly isn't "sub-par" as many people have mentioned.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, it depends on the sort of Fighter you want to go for. In archery, movement is only an issue in that you prefer to keep a distance from things. In that case, the movement hit really hurts a dwarf, and the Fighter won't be using heavier armors to slow down the human or half-elf.

But, my point was really that half-elf isn't a worthless choice. I've seen tons of human fighters, and if those players are willing to say that those are viable builds, then a half-elf fighter is also viable. There's at least one half-elf character concept that certainly isn't "sub-par" as many people have mentioned.

The human has the advantage because she caps out the important feats in the builds and chains earlier. Humans are chosen with Fighter for this reason, and then usually they get out of Fighter once they have enough feats. Because of early feat chains, at low levels, the Human may have the edge on everyone. At high levels, the human doesn't have as much of an edge at all, but the half-elf still certainly does not have the edge. Based on build (archer vs melee), dwarf or elf would be a superior choice to half-elf at high levels and at low levels. Human has a low-level advantage that they can turn into a whole-game advantage by leaving Fighter for greener pastures.

 

[Jdvn1]

At high levels, the human doesn't have as much of an edge at all, but the half-elf still certainly does not have the edge.

I think the bonus to Will saves and low-light vision gives Half-Elf the edge here. At least, I've been in a number of games where encounters happened with less-than-ideal light.

Based on build (archer vs melee), dwarf or elf would be a superior choice to half-elf at high levels and at low levels.

I'm not sure why Dwarf is better than Half-Elf at low or high levels for archery.

Human has a low-level advantage that they can turn into a whole-game advantage by leaving Fighter for greener pastures.

I'm not sure this is a significant advantage. Coming from Fighter, the feat prerequisites are pretty easy to take care of. The bigger limiting factor is BAB. Not checking to be sure, I'd agrue that with most Fighter PrCs, Human and Half-Elf can qualify at the same time.

Regardless, once you're already at high levels (say, starting at high level), both races have a few levels in a prestige class, I think the low-light vision and Will save bonuses will either give Half-Elf an edge, or make the two about on par.

And, Half-Elf still wouldn't be sub-par.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think the bonus to Will saves and low-light vision gives Half-Elf the edge here. At least, I've been in a number of games where encounters happened with less-than-ideal light.

I said humans may not have the edge and half elves don't either. By this I mean that dwarves have the edge. +2 on all saves and Darkvision is substantially better than what half-elves get, and the +2 Con and other bonuses notwithstanding.

I'm not sure why Dwarf is better than Half-Elf at low or high levels for archery.

Those weren't respectively Elf for Archery and Dwarf for melee.

I'm not sure this is a significant advantage. Coming from Fighter, the feat prerequisites are pretty easy to take care of. The bigger limiting factor is BAB. Not checking to be sure, I'd agrue that with most Fighter PrCs, Human and Half-Elf can qualify at the same time.

If they manage leave for the PrC at the same time, the Human keeps the one feat advantage over the half-elf, and it remains substantial (as opposed to sticking with Fighter, which admittedly renders one feat less important).