Half-elves........why no one chooses them?

[Bront]

The +2 to Diplomacy is also marginalized in that Diplomacy is apparently the easies skill to get a bonus for (several different synergies, class abilities, and items that effect charisma skills or diplomacy directly)

 

[shilsen]

Here's the problem with the "In a game, being weeker than another racial choice doesn't matter if there's no other person filling that roll". If my wizard is mechanicaly weaker than another potential wizard, then he's mechanicaly weaker than the well built fighter, cleric, and rogue in my party who didn't. The only 2 classes the Half-Elf isn't significantly weaker than others in is the Rogue or Bard, or a potential Face roll, and that's only for particular builds.

You seriously think that a wizard with one less feat and one less skill pt a level (comparing the half-elf wizard to a human wizard) is going to be so much weaker that he'll seem weaker than a fighter, cleric and rogue in the same group? For me, the wizard's abilities are so divergent from the fighter's, the cleric's or the rogue's that being slightly more or less mechanically effective won't noticeably change how he functions vis-a-vis them. YMMV, and apparently does.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You seriously think that a wizard with one less feat and one less skill pt a level (comparing the half-elf wizard to a human wizard) is going to be so much weaker that he'll seem weaker than a fighter, cleric and rogue in the same group? For me, the wizard's abilities are so divergent from the fighter's, the cleric's or the rogue's that being slightly more or less mechanically effective won't noticeably change how he functions vis-a-vis them. YMMV, and apparently does.

While I have seen subpar racial choices make the character seem like a burden to the rest of the party, I would say that the half-elf is above the line where that won't be the case. It is still weaker enough to leave a bad taste in the mouth of many players, but not so much that it causes the character to become a noticeable "weak link" that breaks the party's chain. In general, if you want to make a character which is that worthless based entirely on race, you need to play a monstrous character. Otherwise, you must play a terrible class/race combo or multiclass extensively.

 

[Bront]

You seriously think that a wizard with one less feat and one less skill pt a level (comparing the half-elf wizard to a human wizard) is going to be so much weaker that he'll seem weaker than a fighter, cleric and rogue in the same group? For me, the wizard's abilities are so divergent from the fighter's, the cleric's or the rogue's that being slightly more or less mechanically effective won't noticeably change how he functions vis-a-vis them. YMMV, and apparently does.

It was a potential example. I have seen characters that have been the weakest link in a party to the point that the player isn't enjoying himself though. You're right to say the half-elf isn't nessisarily gamebreaking in this manor as much as other races are, but there are examples where it could be.

On the other hand, where there is an identical class/function in the group, it makes a HUGE difference.

 

[irdeggman]

This argument only works because you have just shoehorned the human into taking an awful feat that no one would ever take unless they ran out of ideas or needed a PrC with that as a prereq. +1 to three skills? That's worse than +2 to two skills in two separate ways. Further, you are limiting the argument to level 1, whereas at higher levels, the human gets more than enough skill points to wash all of the half-elf bonuses away if you want to look at it that way.

So what you are equivalently stating is that Alertness is a useless feat? That may be the crux of the problem here - I have found Alertness to be a real useful feat in the past.

Alertness: +2 to Spot and Listen.

Half-elf: +1 to Spot, Listen and Search.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So what you are equivalently stating is that Alertness is a useless feat? That may be the crux of the problem here - I have found Alertness to be a real useful feat in the past.

Alertness: +2 to Spot and Listen.

Half-elf: +1 to Spot, Listen and Search.

No, I am stating the following, which is in fact a design paradigm for the Alertness feat:

One concentrated bonus is worth more than several bonuses spread out. This is why the designers made Skill Focus give +3 while Alertness gives +2 to two different skills, totalling to +4. But take a look at your proposed feat: It spreads even thinner, spreading out to three skills, and the total is less than Alertness. This is thus worse than Alertness by huge margins.

 

[icedrake]

I think people have a tendency to choose specific races when they play, but I think it also connects deeply to the world their game takes place in. When gaming in high school, I deeply hated half-elves as the inferior race that diluted elvish blood with that of humanity, both in the home brew world I was playing in and Forgotten Realms. Eberron and The Silmarillion (bit of a story by itself, but Elrond and his family's half-elvish and they're all pretty awesome) completely changed my opionons on all the races. I'll gladly play a half-elf member of one of the Dragonmarked Houses because I love the idea of flying around on an airship or their connection to storms and weather. I do feel that the half-elves are slightly underpowered compared to the other races so I give them the human's extra skill point to make them a bit more appealing. Its a bit of a flavor issue when it comes down to it, but if a person wants to play a human for the feat, they will always go for that race over any other.

 

[dagger]

Are half-elves really mechanically weaker than humans?

Humans get:
1 bonus feat
1 extra skill point per level (x4 at first level but still only 1 extra per level)

Half elves get:
Low light vision
Immunity to sleep and similar magical effects
+2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment spells or effects
+1 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks
+2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks
Elven blood – considered elf for all effects related to race (e.g., bane/favored enemy effects {bad}, ability to qualify for feats, Prestige Classes (and potentially some weapons) available only to elves {good}) – overall an advantage.
Get elven as an automatic language

I will take my extra feat (no, not for alertness) and my extra 23 skill points, thanks.

 

[Seeten]

I will take my extra feat(AND NOT SPEND IT ON ALERTNESS OMG) and my 23 bonus skill points also. In addition, I'll take the 23 bonus skill points, and put 5 of them on bluff, and get +2 diplomacy, +2 sleight, +2 intimidate, +2 disguise, then put 5 on knowledge nobility and royalty and get +2 diplomacy, and then put 5 in intimidate and get +2 diplomacy and I'll take the extra 8, drop them in spot, listen, search and gather info, for more bonus than a half elf will ever get, and THEN I'll spend the feat on a great feat, like Power attack, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Precise Shot, etc.

Anyone who wants to claim Half-Elves are good because their Humans are taking Alertness are missing something pure and fundamental.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And anyone who discounts a bonus to skill because it can be "replaced" by skill points or a feat or magic items is missing something pure and fundamental about opposed checks.