Half-elves........why no one chooses them?

[shilsen]

Thats why all the powergamers say, "I only play them for a specific concept", its because they are second or third best at everything they might do. Second or third best at everything = awful. Incidentally, this doesnt make them versatile, humans are already beating them for versatile. =)

That's true, but it doesn't necessarily matter much in the context of a half-elf PC in a given group. If the half-elf is the only member of a particular class, and especially if the half-elf is the only one occupying a particular niche, the fact that other races could be better at it doesn't really affect the half-elf.

For example, suppose you have a group of PCs where the only arcane caster is a half-elf wizard. Sure, a lot of other races could be better at that role. But since nobody else is playing an arcane caster, the half-elf is going to be the best at that role in the party.

The "which race is better at this class/role?" question becomes irrelevant in many PC groups, because there aren't PCs of different races competing to fill the same niche.

 

[Animal]

that's some very strange discussion you have here. if you play elf or aasimar because he has some special abilities that make him better in your chosen trade than some other races can ever be.. well that's only your problem. maybe you should try playing diablo. every character there has its purpose and he's best in his field. like sorceress is a damage dealer, paladin grants auras, amazon is the best with bow.. isn't it great, no useless classes, you may pick any and pwn monsters.
usually people play D&D to roleplay. there are only seven heroes in diablo. there are zounds of unique characters in D&D. this means that some are weaker, some are stronger. like in real life. it grants endless opportunities to play. enjoy it.

 

[dagger]

that's some very strange discussion you have here. if you play elf or aasimar because he has some special abilities that make him better in your chosen trade than some other races can ever be.. well that's only your problem. maybe you should try playing diablo. every character there has its purpose and he's best in his field. like sorceress is a damage dealer, paladin grants auras, amazon is the best with bow.. isn't it great, no useless classes, you may pick any and pwn monsters.
usually people play D&D to roleplay. there are only seven heroes in diablo. there are zounds of unique characters in D&D. this means that some are weaker, some are stronger. like in real life. it grants endless opportunities to play. enjoy it.

That does not change the fact that half-elf’s are weaker mechanically.

Also, why is picking a race to be better at a class a Diablo thing? Isn't is possible to pick a race that is mechanically superior and role play?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Except for classes that heavily depend on Cha like: paladin, sorcerer, bard. . . .

Well yes. That's a given.

 

[Bront]

That does not change the fact that half-elf’s are weaker mechanically.

Also, why is picking a race to be better at a class a Diablo thing? Isn't is possible to pick a race that is mechanically superior and role play?

If Half-Elves were Mechanicaly balanced, it opens up more playability.

I enjoy a good concept. Even a non-standard one, but there comes a point when the mechanical failability of it trumps the concept, and makes it unenjoyable. I don't want to be XXXXXXX, I want to be an effective XXXXXXX. Doesn't have to be the most powerful, but being weak can be a problem.

Here's the problem with the "In a game, being weeker than another racial choice doesn't matter if there's no other person filling that roll". If my wizard is mechanicaly weaker than another potential wizard, then he's mechanicaly weaker than the well built fighter, cleric, and rogue in my party who didn't. The only 2 classes the Half-Elf isn't significantly weaker than others in is the Rogue or Bard, or a potential Face roll, and that's only for particular builds.

 

[irdeggman]

That does not change the fact that half-elf’s are weaker mechanically.

Are half-elves really mechanically weaker than humans?

Humans get:
1 bonus feat
1 extra skill point per level (x4 at first level but still only 1 extra per level)

Half elves get:
Low light vision
Immunity to sleep and similar magical effects
+2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment spells or effects
+1 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks
+2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks
Elven blood – considered elf for all effects related to race (e.g., bane/favored enemy effects {bad}, ability to qualify for feats, Prestige Classes (and potentially some weapons) available only to elves {good}) – overall an advantage.
Get elven as an automatic language


Now a free feat (of the player’s choice is really pretty sweet) but essentially an elf is getting 2 feats, albeit pre-selected (+1 to 3 skills and +2 to 2 skills are considered to be equivalent to a feat)

As for the advantage of the extra skill points. At first level is where it really factors in, but that depends on the classes. For example a human fighter compared to a half-elf rogue. Both have a +2 Int mod. The human fighter gets (2+2+1) x 4 = 20 skill points. The half-elf rogue gets (8 +2) x4 = 40 skill points. That is the extreme comparison, but it emphasizes the point that it is class dependent.

Let us compare a human bard to a half-elf bard. (I chose this class comparison for a few reasons that will become obvious in a bit.)

Human gets (6 + 2 +1) x4 = 36 skill points.

The half-elf gets (6 + 2) x4 = 32 skill points.

Half-elf gets +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Both are class skills for a bard so a human needs to spend 4 skill point to get this.

The half-elf gets +1 to Listen, Search and Spot checks. I haven’t found a specific feat that gets this combination of bonuses, but for argument’s sake let’s assume there is one – so humans uses his bonus feat.

So far the human has now used up all 4 of bonus skill points at first level and his bonus feat.

Half – elf get “free” elven as a language – human has to spend 1 sp for it (class skill for a bard).

Half-elf gets Low light vision.

Half-elves get immunity to sleep and effects.

Half-elves get a +2 bonus to enchantment spells and effects.


Regardless the tally puts the human not able to account for:

1 language
Low light vision
Immunity to sleep
+2 bonus to saves against enchantment spells

 

[Bront]

Instead, how about the Bard with Point Blank and Precise shot vs Point Blank shot? He's not quite as good a dimplomat at 1st level, but a significantly better and more useful combatant and support for the party.

Marginalizing a feat on skills is ever a good idea. An extra feat is huge, and keep in mind, those 4 extra skill points can help in ways flat bonuses don't (Taking 2 cross class trained use only skills for example).

Granted, as a bard, Half-Elves are fairly reasonable, but then again, see my above post. Bards aren't exactly the best class either.

As a Fighter, they're fairly close, because the extra feat is less meaningfull to a fighter, and skills are in a similar situation, and lowlight is nice. I'd call this a draw.,

As a Paladin, Barbarian, or Ranger, the bonus feat is quite useful, as are the extra skill points. Lowlight doesn't hurt, and if you have a social paladin, the half-elf bonuses are nice. Advantage Human.

As a Rogue, the feat is useful, and even with 8 skills, sometimes that's not enough. The social bonuses are nice for a face rogue though, and lowlight can be nice. Slight Advantage to Humans.

As a Wizard, skill points are nice, the feat could be very useful, while the bonus skills from the half-elf are almost meaningless, and you can get a spell to replicate lowlight/darkvision, or create your own light. Advantage Human.

Sorcerer is about the same as a Wizard, though the social advantages mean a little bit more with a high charisma. Advantage Human, though less so.

Cleric or Druid, Feats are scarce again, so feats are nice. Social skills can be good for a particular cleric build, but skill points are usefull as well for those same builds. Lowlight may not be needed, particularly for the druid who can shapechange. Advantage Human.

So, that gives Bards and some Rogue, Paladin, and Fighter builds that work better as a half-elf somewhat, to generaly more advantagious builds by the human with just about everything else.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The half-elf gets +1 to Listen, Search and Spot checks. I haven’t found a specific feat that gets this combination of bonuses, but for argument’s sake let’s assume there is one – so humans uses his bonus feat.

So far the human has now used up all 4 of bonus skill points at first level and his bonus feat.

This argument only works because you have just shoehorned the human into taking an awful feat that no one would ever take unless they ran out of ideas or needed a PrC with that as a prereq. +1 to three skills? That's worse than +2 to two skills in two separate ways. Further, you are limiting the argument to level 1, whereas at higher levels, the human gets more than enough skill points to wash all of the half-elf bonuses away if you want to look at it that way.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sorcerer is about the same as a Wizard, though the social advantages mean a little bit more with a high charisma. Advantage Human, though less so.

I'd say advantage human, and moreso. Sorcerers are feat-starved little fellows. They can make great use out of Metamagic feats, but they don't get one ever 5 levels like Wizards.

 

[satori01]

Good roleplaying depends alot on developing "hooks".
The best hooks often spring from the mechanical aspects of class and race.

Dwarven Ranger: Hates giants "they squished me Ma!", has selected giants as first Favored Enemy, and has taken Mobility as a feat. Such a character is already playing against sterotype, the lightly armored Dwarf. Between taking Fighter levels and a Ranger's combat path, such a character can be easily combat ready, (Thrown Axes, Two weapon axe Fighting with Dwarvern War Axe and Hand Axe). This characters hatred of giants can be easily displayed by Charging any giant on sight, and with a +8 dodge bonus to AC from race and Mobility, mechanicaly it makes sense. Played well enough, and I guarentee any DM will bite on the hook, and provide plenty of giants to fight.

Same could be done with a Dwarf Rogue, that is a conisseur of locks and stone work. He doesnt consider himself a thief, just a cataloguer of fine craftsmanship, adventuring allows him to see ancient works, and funds said exploration at the same time. Easy hook could be every time the Dwarf Rogue disarms/and or springs a trap he or she comments on the workmanship of it. "Sorry about the gash, mate, but did ya see how perfectly the scythe blade blended into the wall? Seemless I tell ya, they di nae make them like that anymore".

Half Orc (Battle) Sorcerer or Duskblade, Halfing Knight or Druid focusing on Mounted Combat, Elven Ranger or Scout, needing only 4 hours of sleep and being played as xenophobic and distrustful..etc..etc...etc.

The Half-Elf's lack of mechanical flair hurts it when it comes to hooks. A Human's Bonuses feat and extra skill point helps a player define his character. Want to play a sailor, Skill Focus Profesion Sailor and devoting your bonuses skill point to Profesion Sailor can do the trick nicely.

Being pidgeonholed into the "Diplomat" role is not doing the Half-Elf any favors. Diplomacy requires high skill ranks to be effective. To be the best Diplomat requires skill ranks in Sense Motive, Bluff, and Knowledge Nobility for the synergy bonuses.
Very few classes have all of those as class skills.

A +2 to Diplomacy, is not that useful as a general bonus, since the DC for altering people's reaction to you are quite high. A Half-Elf Fighter with a 14 Cha is not going to be talking the Orc charging at him into playing Chutes and Ladders any time soon.

Most of the other PHB races have skill bonuses that effect general skills, that often can have DC's in the 15 range. A general +2 for those skills is nice, at any level of the game.