Half-elves........why no one chooses them?

I think a +1 skill point per level would serve the half elf just fine, that way their bonuses to skills are not undermined by the human's extra skill bonuses.

Then you would have an extra feat vs sleep immunity, +2 to enchantments, skill bonuses, and low light. The balance then is determined by class choice, which is how it is with most races. If the half elf bonuses mean something to your character concept, then it becomes stronger than playing a human. However if your build requires a feat chain, or some other bonus the half elf bonuses don't grant, then human is still right up your alley.
 

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KarinsDad said:
One of the things I cannot stand about Elves is the CON hit. For my characters, main ability score(s) is first, CON is second, and DEX is third.

There seems to be a large DEX is King crowd in the DND community whereas I've always thought that CON is King. YMMV.

Agreed and agreed! Dex was King back before the Dark Times... before the coming of 3e... before the arrival of the new King, Str.

Elves were sick before 3e, -Con didn't really hurt all that much, since almost nobody had any Con Bonus to HP to speak of! One of my players converted his Human Thief to a Human Rogue when 3.0 came out and groaned when he saw the new impact that his 7 Con had on his HP!! He was a trooper though, I offered to let him raise the Con to 10 since it would reflect more accurately, but he declined the offer and played him as is.

So yeah, Str is King, and Con is his Right Hand. :lol:

KarinsDad said:
PS. I often play Dwarves.
Powergamer! (lol)
 

Gnome said:
If you compare a elves vs half-elves, the half-elf compares much more favorably if a martial class is being played (since the free weapon proficiencies of the elf become irrelevant). Mechanically speaking, I'd much rather play a half-elf meele class than an elf: no CON penalty, and favored class of ANY for dips into other classes (especially useful if playing something other than a straight fighter to dip into fighter for feats).

Before reading this thread, it also never occured to me how useful their +2 vs. enchantment spells ability is, especially for a fighter type with a low Will save. Iron Will is a common feat choice for fighter types, so this can either save the character a feat, or they can get the feat anyway for additional protection. This applies to Elves as well, of course, but the CON penalty is a killer for meele types.

If I were playing a half-elf of a non-meele class, I'd ask my DM if I could play the variant half-elves from the DMG that get the elven weapon proficiencies in exchange for their favored class being limited to wizard.


Assuming that you are playing a melee class (and, for a moment let us ignore the Human) and this class is not the Paladin (if see the human becoms non-ignorable), then consider:

Half Elf
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
• Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven.
• Favored Class: Any.

Dwarf
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven.
• Favored Class: Fighter.


People make a big deal out of skill bonuses for the Half-Elf.

Dwarf: +2 craft, +2 appraise +2 search (situational) = +6
Half Elf: +1 search, +1 spot, +1 listen, +2 Diplomacy, +2 Gather Information = +7

[Neither really stands out as being ideally allocated. I like the Half Elves bonuses better but jeepers this is close]

Now Saving throws:
Dwarf: +2 vs all spells, +1 vs. poison
Half-Elf: +2 vs. enchantment spells and immunity to sleep

[Seriously, these bonuses are not even close -- the Dwarf has everything that the half-elf has in terms of resistance to magic but he also resists all other spells as well]

Vision:

Dwarf: Darkvision
Half-Elf: Low light vision

[Clear advantage to the race that can easily see in complete darkness]

Stats Mods:

Dwarf: +2 Con (important for warrior), -2 Cha (usually less important)
Half-Elf: Nothing

[I am trying to think of a non-Paladin example where the Dwarf is worse off as a melee character than the Half-elf with these mods. All I can come up with are places where the Dwarf is way better.

Consider 2 elite array fighters:

Half Elf: Str 15 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8
Dwarf: Str 15 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 8

Now remember the Dwarf has +2 on all saves vs. spells and think of a will save that is not a spell; also could go with 6 CHA -- I think that 16 con will be appreciated]
]

Blood is dwarf blood vs. Elven blood (push)

Speed: Curiously, both move 20 ft im medium or heavy armor. Minimal advantage to Half Elf as melee classes will never wander around in light or no armor in most situations.

Other bonuses:
Dwarf: +4 stability (trip!), +1 attacks vs. Orcs and Goblins, +4 dodge vs. Giants, weapon familarity
Half-Elf: Favored Class (any)


Now, I could pick Half-Elf as a melee class if I wanted an elf, wanted a fighter and did not want a CON penalty. But what are the circumstances where a Dwarf isn't a mechanically better choice?

It's logically possible to come up with scenarios, but they are in the minority, in my opinion. The Dwarf has a favorable stat mod for a usually unrequired one, better saves, almsot the same skill mods, same overall move in armor, better vision and a whole series of combat bonuses. I suspect that the trip bonus (stability) will show up more often than any niche bonus that a Half-Elf advocate could come up with.

This leaves only favored class: any. I am not really all that this matters for 2 reasons:

1) This might be the msot houseruled thing I have ever encountered (a side point but one worth making)
2) It's actually hard to come up with a good multi-class combination that can't be made with the dwarf using most standard books. The only ones that I could come up with were combinations like: Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Barbarian X and Fighter 2/Hexblade 2/Barbarian X.

But, Barbarian 2/Ranger 2/Fighter X is a valid choice and doesn't reek of mechanical weakness compared to the above. Plus, after about level 6, prestige classes become an option and these often make these clonsiderations moot.

So Half-Elf= melee class is probably an issue of roleplaying only. Not that it can't work (it can) but there is no "mechanical" reason to do it.
 

Drowbane said:
Agreed and agreed! Dex was King back before the Dark Times... before the coming of 3e... before the arrival of the new King, Str.

Elves were sick before 3e, -Con didn't really hurt all that much, since almost nobody had any Con Bonus to HP to speak of! One of my players converted his Human Thief to a Human Rogue when 3.0 came out and groaned when he saw the new impact that his 7 Con had on his HP!! He was a trooper though, I offered to let him raise the Con to 10 since it would reflect more accurately, but he declined the offer and played him as is.

So yeah, Str is King, and Con is his Right Hand. :lol:


Powergamer! (lol)

Unless you play an archer or ranged attack specialist.

Something like a warlock with a ranged touch attack ability.

In that case Dex is far more potent than is Str.

And since an elf's favored class is wizard and they have a lot more ranged attack spells than melee touch ones (well it appears to be more to me at least) - Dex over Str again.
 

irdeggman said:
Unless you play an archer or ranged attack specialist.

Something like a warlock with a ranged touch attack ability.

In that case Dex is far more potent than is Str.

And since an elf's favored class is wizard and they have a lot more ranged attack spells than melee touch ones (well it appears to be more to me at least) - Dex over Str again.
Dex over Str for a Wizard all the way. And Con over Dex by just as much of a margin. As I think Monte mentioned in a Design Diary about AU, where the casters have d6 HD at least, Wizards hit dice is unplayably low all alone--they live or die by their Con.

An 8 Con Elf Wizard is going to be killed in one hit in every battle. At first level, if he shoots himself with a Magic Missile, he has a 50% chance to knock himself out and a 25% chance to stagger himself. A miniboss level 3 Wizard will automatically defeat him in a single round (barring Shield). Any competent hit from a weapon will take him out of the fight. At third level, he has 6 hit points, and he will still knock himself out with an average Magic Missile. His new spell Scorching Ray will knock him out barring a major fluke, and slightly above average rolls will outright kill him down to -10 or below. At fifth level, he has 9 hit points, almost as much as a 1st-level Fighter. If he casts a fireball, average damage rounded up will stagger him on a *successful save*. And this is an area of effect spell that will kill him as an afterthought. The 3rd-level Wizard still knocks him out with an average Scorching Ray, and will continue to do so until level 8 (of course, a level 8 Wizard can kill him at ease with a Scorching Ray, just not a level 3 Wizard).
 

Rystil Arden said:
That ability doesn't make any sense though. Why would a half-elf have +2 Con -2 Dex? If you wanted to recreate the outcast half-elf instead of this unusual loved-by-all 3.5 half-elf, you could take away all the new Cha skill bonuses and make the half-elf +2 Dex -2 Cha (Dex from elven blood, Cha loss from constant persecution -> inferiority). That would be quite appealing without being weird.

I love cha so that would suck for me. =P
 


I am a true powergamer, I just dump wisdom. I know it slightly hurts my will save, but...well, I dump cha on my male characters. Its just tough to dump it on the girls.

Also, I generally pick classes like Sorcerer and Dread Necromancer and Paladin and Hexblade that use cha so I can pump it to heck.

And I still think Half-elves blow.

Its a simple case of "Everything you can do, I can do better, I can do everything better than you." Humans beat em silly for versatility. Dwarves for melee. Elves for stealth. Gnomes for wizardry, everyone beats em at stuff, which leaves them looking pretty chumpy.

Thats why all the powergamers say, "I only play them for a specific concept", its because they are second or third best at everything they might do. Second or third best at everything = awful. Incidentally, this doesnt make them versatile, humans are already beating them for versatile. =)
 

I think they're just as good as humans for martial classes. No, better.
In the Dungeon Master's Guide you can make your favored class Wizard in exchange for awesome proficiencies. The +2 saves on enchantments and sleep effects is nice, especially for a martial class that usually gets punked by these sorts of things. Low light vision is nothing to sneeze at, either.
I'd argue that the half elf, even without the bonus skill point or feat from Unearthed Arcana is a strong race for a martial class like a Knight, Paladin, or Marshal or any class that puts an emphasis on face work or would appreciate an uber rapier or an uber bastard sword. I played a Fighter with an Elven Courtblade and was very much satisfied.
 


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