Half-elves........why no one chooses them?

[Rystil Arden]

And anyone who discounts a bonus to skill because it can be "replaced" by skill points or a feat or magic items is missing something pure and fundamental about opposed checks.

It is true that others can gain the other sorts of bonuses as well, I wouldn't make such a sweeping blanket statement--not all of the half-elf's skill bonuses are to skills that typically see opposed checks.

 

[Particle_Man]

Gather Info: no opposed check
Diplomacy: usually no opposed check. Rarely, (arguing law cases?) an opposed check.
Search: vs. DC (admittedly, traps can get nastier and nastier, but that sort of thing applies to a lot of skills)

So we are mainly talking about spot and listen.

Either those opposed checks are wayyyyy more important than other opposed checks (in which case the Elf is even more better) or they are not (in which case the human has more skill points to spend on more skills (like hide and move silent - the things that oppose spot and listen checks) and thus win more opposed checks in general.

No, half-elves blow chunks. Seriously. Especially in a point-buy system where you can get a decent con for an elf anyhow.

 

[Votan]

And anyone who discounts a bonus to skill because it can be "replaced" by skill points or a feat or magic items is missing something pure and fundamental about opposed checks.

True. But in most builds that don't focus on maxing out a skill (i.e. specific niche builds within a class) the ability to have 23 skill points across 20 levels seems to be better.

Also, the ability of a human to pick a feat makes a big difference. The first level comparision, for example, ignores the way that feats stack.

Feats
Human (non-Fighter) Archer: Point blank shot, Precise shot
Half-Elf (non-fighter) Archer: Point blank shot

Human Sorcerer: Infernal Sorcerer Heritage (PHB2), Infernal Sorcerer Howl (PHB2)
Half-Elf Sorcerer: Infernal Sorcerer Heritage (PHB2)

Notice how in both of these cases, the human is able to get the pre-requisite feat and then get the payoff feat at first level while the half elf needs to wait until 3rd level. I suspect feat elements of niche builds will be much more common than diplomacy, gather information or the +1 to spot, search and listen.

Also, if Alertness is really that great, why not the Gnome or the Elf who have better sense bonuses??

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

All good points, Votan.

Obviously the Elf is a better choice for some Spot/Listen if you can stomach the hit to Con, a sacrifice which may depend upon not only your class choice but method of generating stats. I do not really see the Gnome as better or worse than Half-Elf for Spot/Listen.

I would certainly agree that the Elf and Human are more easily focused. One of the reasons Human is always a candidate for a power build.

 

[irdeggman]

So over 20 levels a human gets +1 feat and 23 skill points more.

Let us put it into more perspective then. Pretty much most seem to think (well that is how I see the writing focused) that the extra feat is the biggest thing for an advantage.

At low levesl this is much more important than it is at higer ones.

Every character gets a feat at 1st and every other level afterwards.

So a 20th level character has 7 feats. The human bonuse will give him 8. That is a 14% increase. How truely significant is this at higher levels - really.

At lower levels the increase from skill points is likewise not as significant. Well the +4 at first is, but again it is dependent on classes.

No I think the real problem with the half-elf is not mechanical but flavor. Many people have stated this and it is pretty much ture. Where does the half-elf fit in? What is the races niche? If there was a better broad niche (i.e., generic campaign one) it would make it a better choice for most.

I (and others) have also pointed out that is addressed in several campaigns that have done (IMO) a better job of giving the races a niche/culture to fit into.

 

[Animal]

i'm sorry to say that but you're munchkins guys. theory of "hooks" in character's mechanics that help to roleplay it is pathetic. i mean how power attack or precise shot makes your character more alive and help you immerse in your role? are you characters just a sheet of paper with scribbled numbers? how on earth a character without power attack becomes a BURDEN for a party? nonsense.
i guess your favourite football team is the one that won the last championship.

 

[Piratecat]

Hey now, no insults please. It's fine to disagree with someone, but not to insult them in the process.

I'll argue that I can roleplay any race, but some (dwarf, half-orc) are easier or more fun than others. That being the case, I would like each race's mechanical advantages to be roughly equal, thus evening the playing field.

For me, the half-elf is sub-par both mechanically and in terms of flavor. I'd gleefully play an underpowered kobold because they'd be so much fun, but an underpowered half-elf? No thanks.

 

[Bront]

For me, the half-elf is sub-par both mechanically and in terms of flavor. I'd gleefully play an underpowered kobold because they'd be so much fun, but an underpowered half-elf? No thanks.

I think that's the real crux of the issue.

To Address Animal's statement about mechanics and hooks, I've had a fairly cool (In my mind) idea to have a warrior who used TWF and Improved Shield Bash to wade into combat with his weapon and shield and be a tank who uses his shield as a deadly supprise weapon. Unfortunately, due to a lack of feats (Pre PHB II, which finaly made it possable), if you used anything beyond a light shield, you're -4 to hit, and mechanicaly, you're better with a Short Sword and Two Weapon Defense mechanicly by quite a bit over either the Heavy Shield or the Light Shield(To hit, Damage, Weight, and Feat Chain wise, let alone these funky animated shields), not to mention the attribute depandancy of such a build making it unwieldly in many games. So am I being an unreasonable munchkin powergamer for passing on an idea that is riddled with potential holes when there are so many other concepts I can play that have flavor and function more or less on a fairly even keel?

I guess part of it is I don't think many from previous editions played Half-Elves as the negotiator/peacemaker that they seem to be presented as in 3.0/3.5. Half-Elves where somewhat outsiders, or loaners, or so many other things. And with the racial bonus, does it realy make sense even? (A human and a half-elf walk into an unfriendly dwarven town to gather information, with identical stats and ranks, and the Half-Elf has an easier time... because he's half elven?) Why not, for example, +2 to Survival and Slight of Hand because they've had to learn to fend for themselves? Technicaly it's the same skill bonuses, but it's a wider variety, opens them up a bit, and gives them a more unique flavor than they had previously.

 

[Votan]

I guess part of it is I don't think many from previous editions played Half-Elves as the negotiator/peacemaker that they seem to be presented as in 3.0/3.5. Half-Elves where somewhat outsiders, or loaners, or so many other things. And with the racial bonus, does it realy make sense even? (A human and a half-elf walk into an unfriendly dwarven town to gather information, with identical stats and ranks, and the Half-Elf has an easier time... because he's half elven?) Why not, for example, +2 to Survival and Slight of Hand because they've had to learn to fend for themselves? Technicaly it's the same skill bonuses, but it's a wider variety, opens them up a bit, and gives them a more unique flavor than they had previously.

Interesting, Half-Elves used to be what humans are now -- the ultimate flixible race as they could multi-class far more combinations than any other race. You had highly skilled loaners which is a great flavor mechanic.

What is worth pointing out is that the Half-elf isn't miles away from useful. It is just that if a race is unifrom;ly beaten by everybody else it isn't as fun to play. It's not that every character has to be powerful BUT I have (repeatedly) watched concept character under-contribute to the party. Sometimes this is okay but if you feel constantly weak than that is an issue.

I also like mechanics that reward playing to flavor (nobody has to tell a rogue player to take opportunistic shots at a flat footed foe). Half-elves as snake oil salespeople just doesn't seem like a logical progression from the flavor . . .

 

[Fishbone]

Sure it does. These people are cast outs so they need to be good at talking people up and talking themselves out of trouble. They also need info from people, like who is prejudiced against half elves, who hires them, etc. etc. They're good at hearing, searching, and finding/seeing things because they need to be and because of their elven heritage. It does make mechanical sense for them to "snake oil salesman". Its not really a racial thing. Its more like the race all took Hard Knocks 101.