Half-Orc Two-Weapon Fighter: Is There Any Point?

[two]

I think that's putting it rather strongly. In certain areas, TWF really excels.

It's really not putting it strongly. It's the troof!

You have to min/max tweak 3rd party feat and etc. your brains out to get a 2 weapon fighter that can stand up to a normal boring vanilla barbarian w/greatsword (who also has about 6 free feats to play arond with compared to the 2 weapon fighter).

The only time 2 weapon fighting is reasonable is for a rogue; really, that's pretty much it.

Other builds can make 2 weapon fighting not suck (with a lot of effort).

But equal effort (and gold) put into a 2-handed weapon user would result in a vastly more powerful fighter.

It's just the sad mechanical truth of 3.5

 

[pressedcat]

Have you considered adding quick draw to your feat list? This will enable you to dish out a load of thrown weapon attacks optimising your ranged capabilities, and also gives you the option of charging in wielding one weapon two-handed, power attacking to deal larger amounts of damage, and then drawing you offhand weapon if and when you need it.

 

[Felon]

It's just the sad mechanical truth of 3.5

It's not the truth. It's just a perspective.

Yes, getting the most out of Two-Weapon Fighting means a heavy feat investment. However, I didn't regard building this character as a "ton of work". I enjoyed putting it together, confident that the end result will yield a nice payoff. That's the attitude that works when building a 3.5 fighter.

Don't wanna have to manage a spellbook and prepare spells in advance? That's what sorcerers, warmages, warlocks, etc. are there for. Knock yourself out.

Don't wanna do character-building at that level? That's what the Power-Attacking greataxe barb is there for. Have fun.

 

[Felon]

Have you considered adding quick draw to your feat list? This will enable you to dish out a load of thrown weapon attacks optimising your ranged capabilities, and also gives you the option of charging in wielding one weapon two-handed, power attacking to deal larger amounts of damage, and then drawing you offhand weapon if and when you need it.

Oh, most definitely. Quick draw is somewhere on the list. Just don't know where to fit it in.

 

[two]

It's not the truth. It's just a perspective.

Yes, getting the most out of Two-Weapon Fighting means a heavy feat investment. However, I didn't regard building this character as a "ton of work". I enjoyed putting it together, confident that the end result will yield a nice payoff. That's the attitude that works when building a 3.5 fighter.

Don't wanna have to manage a spellbook and prepare spells in advance? That's what sorcerers, warmages, warlocks, etc. are there for. Knock yourself out.

Don't wanna do character-building at that level? That's what the Power-Attacking greataxe barb is there for. Have fun.

Sorry. I didn't mean it wasn't necessarily fun to try to figure out! Just that the results are kinda blah.

I agree it's fun to try to make something a little sub-par not suck. I do it all the time too. You should play a bard if you can; they are actually a hoot!

What I really meant was that it is entirely possible, indeed almost required, for the 2 weapon fighter to spend between 3-6 feats in order to match, under optimal situations, the damage output (over time) of a normal boring greatsword user who just uses 1-2 feats (typically power attack and...well, [insert feat here]).

The greatsword wielder has 3-6 additional feats to play around with, more money to invest (not split between 2 weapons), does way more damage when full attacks are impossible, etc. All the obvious stuff.

From a "common sense" perspective, spending 3-6 feats on making a style of fighting powerful SHOULD make it more powerful -- much more so -- than a greatsword user with 1-2 feats dedicated to the greatsword. Sadly, the mechanics do not play out this way.

That's all I meant.

Note this is for fighter builds, not rogues.

 

[Darmanicus]

I think I sucessfully created a 2WF Half-Orc, (well it's working for me).

Ranger 1 - Exotic Weapon Prof: Bastard Sword.
Ranger 2 - Combat Style: Archery.
Fighter 1 - 2 Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword.
Fighter 3 -
Fighter 4 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Fighter 5 -

Ok so he could be optimised a bit more however I wanted him to be pretty good on the archery front also.

Made sure that the Hv spiked shield was made of mithril as well as his armour and job done, (the shield also has the bashing enchantment).

As someone already mentioned I did have to neglect Int and Chr but what the heck......he's a Half-Orc!

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd be tempted to go for half-orc ranger, because then you don't need to worry about having the Dex prerequisite, you have base 6 skill points per level to offset the Int penalty and an excellent skill list. Well chosen favoured enemies work extremely well with TWF too.

Cheers

 

[Felon]

Sorry. I didn't mean it wasn't necessarily fun to try to figure out! Just that the results are kinda blah. I agree it's fun to try to make something a little sub-par not suck.

See, I told you were stating a perspective, not a fact. Now you're just stating your opinion again, in a more matter-of-fact tone. It is simply incorrect to say that 2WF is sup-par and that it takes effort simply to catch up to a two-hander. As I stated, a properly-built two-weapon fighter beats the two-hander in damage output many if not most situations.

I'd be tempted to go for half-orc ranger, because then you don't need to worry about having the Dex prerequisite, you have base 6 skill points per level to offset the Int penalty and an excellent skill list. Well chosen favoured enemies work extremely well with TWF too.

Well, my line of thinking here is that I won't attempt the build unless I have the ability scores to back it up.

 

[SteveC]

What I really meant was that it is entirely possible, indeed almost required, for the 2 weapon fighter to spend between 3-6 feats in order to match, under optimal situations, the damage output (over time) of a normal boring greatsword user who just uses 1-2 feats (typically power attack and...well, [insert feat here]).

One thing to be very careful about is your line of reasoning here. Power Attack is only useful in a campaign with creatures with low armor class. As soon as you get into a fight with opponents with a decent AC, power attacking has either a very small effect, or it has a negative effect.

I ran a campaign once where I gave everyone the option to use power attack for free. It wouldn't count as a pre-req for other feats (you still had to buy it to get to cleave, for example) but you could use the effects of it for free.

A few combats after I started this, the party ended up getting very bloody because they were fighting opponents that they could miss as soon as they started taking 5 point off their to-hit rolls. That was even before iterative attacks.

So yes, Power Attacking can make an effective character. It can also give you a major headache.

--Steve

 

[Felon]

One thing to be very careful about is your line of reasoning here. Power Attack is only useful in a campaign with creatures with low armor class. As soon as you get into a fight with opponents with a decent AC, power attacking has either a very small effect, or it has a negative effect.

In a damage-over-time test, the -2 penalty for 2WF is typically compared to a -2 penalty for Power Attacking two-handed (for +4 damage).

So, take an 18 Str guy just investing one feat in 2WF and doing longsword + shortsword, and compare that to him using a greatsword. He's getting the following damage output:

1d8 + 4 = 8.5 average w/longsword
1d6 + 2 = 5.5 average w/shortsword
2d6 + 6 + 4 = 17 average w/greatsword

The greatsword's total exceeds both the longsword and shortsword put together. However, this is mitigated by having two chances to damage a target versus only one (which is what the "2WF suxorz" folks generally don't take into account).

Now, let's throw in EWF (waraxe) and Oversized 2WF:

1d10 + 4 = 9.5 average per swing w/greataxe in primary hand.
1d10 + 2 = 7.5 average per swing w/greataxe off-hand.

For the cost of three feats (or two for a dwarf), the total damage output matches the greatsword's, while having two chances to inflict damage rather than one tilts the scales (as SteveC points out, we're already in a situation where AC is effectively boosted by taking a -2 penalty).

Now, there are situations where the two-handed weapon still has a big advantage, like when a character has to move 10 feet or more to attack. That's where feats like Two-Weapon Pounce (PHBII) and Dual Strike (CV) can clean up.

One odd thing about Two's rationale is that he says it's somehow different for rogues than for fighters. The same "delivery system" strategy that a 2WF uses with his sneak attack damage also applies to other forms of bonus damage, such as Weapon Specialization or Favored Enemy, magical weapon bonuses and so forth.