Flipguarder
First Post
The main issue for me is that it basically is divine bolts... but you just crit WAY more often with it than you would with the similar build using divine bolts.
Hand of Radiance too powerful?
- Thread starter FrozenChrono
- Start date
so limit all at wills to one crit per power
or only the 1st roll on a at will can crit.
keterys
First Post
Can you clarify in which way that actually matters? Ie, is there some crazy 'on critical' ability that triggers?
For example, let's say it was doing the static damage instead...
You'd be choosing between 2d6+16 per hit, 28+5d10 per crit, for 2 targets and 8 per hit, 5d10+16 per crit. With let's call it 50% more crits when you have 50% more targets. Though the same number of crits per target.
Assuming both have same crit range
So 2 targets DB: 23 avg per hit, 55 avg crit, over 20 attacks - 8 misses, 10 hits, 2 crits, 340 damage
3 targets HR: 8 avg per hit, 43 crit, over 30 attacks - 12 misses, 15 hits, 3 crits, 249 damage
If you assumed you didn't have same crit range, DB suffers in comparison (but it no longer is a valid comparison), but still does 308 damage.
So it's more a question of what special things trigger on crits.
Would you have the same problem with the power if it was just 2 targets? Or is the problem that it's radiant at all?
For example, let's say it was doing the static damage instead...
You'd be choosing between 2d6+16 per hit, 28+5d10 per crit, for 2 targets and 8 per hit, 5d10+16 per crit. With let's call it 50% more crits when you have 50% more targets. Though the same number of crits per target.
Assuming both have same crit range
So 2 targets DB: 23 avg per hit, 55 avg crit, over 20 attacks - 8 misses, 10 hits, 2 crits, 340 damage
3 targets HR: 8 avg per hit, 43 crit, over 30 attacks - 12 misses, 15 hits, 3 crits, 249 damage
If you assumed you didn't have same crit range, DB suffers in comparison (but it no longer is a valid comparison), but still does 308 damage.
So it's more a question of what special things trigger on crits.
Would you have the same problem with the power if it was just 2 targets? Or is the problem that it's radiant at all?
Just for reference, this is what the character's Hand of Radiance is going to be doing.
4 attacks
1d4+wisdom
crit on 19 (4 targets means 34.39% chance for at least one crit per round)
on a crit, regular crit damage, plus the following:
vulnerable 10 radiant for all creatures within 5 squares
3d6 radiant damage at the end of the critically hit creature's turn
3d6 radiant damage to any enemy that ends a turn adjacent to the creature
And of course that extra 3d6 radiant damage is going to be affected by the vulnerable 10 radiant, as will attacks from allies and next round's hand of radiance.
With your feats a critical hit probably means that you'll add an additional 40 to 50 points of damage above and beyond a character just using a regular Hand of Radiance attack. The critically hit target will take an additional 3d6+10, and anyone you hit in the next round will take an additional 10.
I would probably ask you to switch gaming groups, not because I think this character is necessarily overpowered, but because I think you're approaching this with a very different attitude than the rest of my players. The avenger/invoker hybrid multiclassed to cleric to get one paragon path power and basically nothing else just isn't the way we roll.
4 attacks
1d4+wisdom
crit on 19 (4 targets means 34.39% chance for at least one crit per round)
on a crit, regular crit damage, plus the following:
vulnerable 10 radiant for all creatures within 5 squares
3d6 radiant damage at the end of the critically hit creature's turn
3d6 radiant damage to any enemy that ends a turn adjacent to the creature
And of course that extra 3d6 radiant damage is going to be affected by the vulnerable 10 radiant, as will attacks from allies and next round's hand of radiance.
With your feats a critical hit probably means that you'll add an additional 40 to 50 points of damage above and beyond a character just using a regular Hand of Radiance attack. The critically hit target will take an additional 3d6+10, and anyone you hit in the next round will take an additional 10.
I would probably ask you to switch gaming groups, not because I think this character is necessarily overpowered, but because I think you're approaching this with a very different attitude than the rest of my players. The avenger/invoker hybrid multiclassed to cleric to get one paragon path power and basically nothing else just isn't the way we roll.
Doh! I forgot the Cosmic Power add.
Even so, we are talking a Striker and a Controller doing similar levels of damage. The Striker tends to average at best 2 foes with this and the foes do not always have to leave the zone. Even if they have to leave the zone, 2 * (D4+Cha 6 +Magic 3 +Str 5 +Str 5) in a typical scenario vs. 3 * (D4+Wis 6 +Magic 3) is a 43 to 34.5 ratio. If they don't have to leave the zone, 33 to 34.5 ratio. That's not including radiant vulnerable creatures (34.5 or 43 vs. 49.5) or the increased number of crits.
Sure, the Sorcerer might be able to target 3 foes on occasion, but he might only be able to target 1 or even 0 foes with Blazing Starfall often as well due to how foes are spread out. The problem is that with a 65% hit chance at level 11 (same level foe), Hand of Radiance is averaging 24+ damage round in and round out (except against solos or at the very end of encounters) without any feats or Font of Radiance or Punishing Radiance added in, not just when targets just happen to be placed strategically. Combining 3 attacks per round with improved crit range plus extra damage on a crit is just plain uber. And it all starts with 3 attacks per round. This is why some of the Cleric area powers that do not target allies can be taken advantage of as well.
DracoSuave
First Post
What I don't get is how Avenger at all helps any sort of Hand of Radiance cheese.
Can someone explain that to me?
I don't worry too much about Hand of Radiance making Divine Bolts look bad. You're sacrificing control for a spread of damage, as a controller that's a fair thing to do. You can't combo it with Sorcerer, you can't really increase it that much at all. You -can- staff of ruin it, but that's hardly news.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the appeal in a straight-up damage-dealing Invoker, sure you can crit more often but you're a controller, you will anyways.
I wouldn't worry over-much about it, it's not like you're twinstriking here.
Can someone explain that to me?
I don't worry too much about Hand of Radiance making Divine Bolts look bad. You're sacrificing control for a spread of damage, as a controller that's a fair thing to do. You can't combo it with Sorcerer, you can't really increase it that much at all. You -can- staff of ruin it, but that's hardly news.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the appeal in a straight-up damage-dealing Invoker, sure you can crit more often but you're a controller, you will anyways.
I wouldn't worry over-much about it, it's not like you're twinstriking here.
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I want to see larger area of effects and more targets so the magic becomes more mythic... I do want to see a price for that power... and some of the new invokers powers have that.
I have very few undead in my game world ... and far more mutants and regenerators who don't regen when you hit them with fire.;-), so radiant is something usually only useful against demons.
I have very few undead in my game world ... and far more mutants and regenerators who don't regen when you hit them with fire.;-), so radiant is something usually only useful against demons.
Yeah, he's obviously badwrongfun.
keterys
First Post
You're still acting like damage spread over creatures is somehow equivalent to damage concentrated on one creature.
Now, the real trick is all the stuff that triggers on the at-will critical... the radiant 10 vulnerability to all creatures within 10 and auto/lingering damage is pretty serious stuff.
There are ways to make Divine Bolts deal radiant damage, so then it's just comparing d4 up to 3 targets to d6 up to two targets there. Divine Bolts is always better on 1 or 2 targets, Hand of Radiance is always better on 3+. How much the caster would be using an at-will at 21st level depends on the group... in some groups, all but a couple creatures will be dead by the time you exhaust your encounter powers and daily power for the encounter. In others, there might be several rounds of at-wills or encounters might only be used on rounds you get a buff from an ally.
End of the day, it's simple. If it bothers the DM... just voluntarily switch it. It's better for everyone.
It doesn't. The Avenger multiclass is for situations when Hand of Radiance isn't relevant anymore because he doesn't have enough targets.
Yep. That's exacty what I said. If he's not playing D&D the way my group plays it, he's playing it wrong. Not only should he not play in my group, he shouldn't play in any group anywhere. Ninjas should hunt him down and take his dice away.
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