Hand of Radiance too powerful?

[kerbarian]

And of course that extra 3d6 radiant damage is going to be affected by the vulnerable 10 radiant, as will attacks from allies and next round's hand of radiance.

It looks like Punishing Radiance can stack with itself as well, so multiple crits can result in enemies with vulnerable 20+ radiant. The chance of 2 crits (on 19-20) in 4 attacks is only a little over 5%, but rerolls and such (e.g. Sage of Ages) can boost that. Then the invoker can spend an action point to take advantage of the vulnerable enemies, toss out some ongoing radiant damage (from the Radiant Servant PP), and have a decent chance of yet another crit, for vulnerable 30 radiant on his next turn.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

A big part of my plan is to beef up the invoker at will Hand of Radiance, mostly with crit enhancments and regular damage boosts. I'll be picking up Font of Radiance, punishing Radiance and I'm MCing cleric to get into the Radiant Servant PP which will give me a 19-20 crit range.

My DM is afraid that I'll be dealing too much damage with an at will. He's concerned that it will be more powerful than many encounter powers and he might not allow it because of that.

I feel there are a lot of other powers that are much more of an issue, I also feel I could optimize this build a lot more than it is and that my power level won't be an issue for the party. For instance exchanging my Mordenkrad for dual implements (with the feat for extra damage) and instead of hybridizing Avenger I could focus more on mass target DPS by staying pure invoker. I've also gone Preservation instead of Wrath.


I'm wondering if Hand of Radiance is too powerful? Are this builds at-wills too powerful compared to other classes? Thanks for the input!

I'd allow it in the game I run. I think Hand of Radiance is one of the first controller at-wills that really lets them do what they're meant to do - extra damage to groups on enemies. With the exception of Orb Wizards, I think most controllers aren't powerful enough to justify their lower HP.

A couple of comments:

You couldn't swap Mordenkrad for Dual Implement Spellcaster, since that only affects arcane powers.

Does the party need you in the line of battle? If not, I'd consider Cleric|Invoker for the extra healing for the party, and take Sacred Flame for the other at-will. Use a Staff of Ruin for an implement, since a hybrid can use any of his class implements for all powers, and pick the Encounter and Daily powers for status effects and party health. Lower HP and much lower AC of course, but I think the Cleric powers are much better than the Avenger ones.

if the DM doesn't think this is balanced, choose one of the perfectly balanced single classes from PHB1. Like the Orb Wizard or Bow Ranger.

 

[KarinsDad]

You're still acting like damage spread over creatures is somehow equivalent to damage concentrated on one creature.

It is against minions.


Spreading damage over multiple foes is more likely to ensure that the damage is actually felt and not wasted. And I personally think when comparing more damage with less damage, the less damage against multiple foes helps out the party more than more damage against one foe. The only time this is not true is when the more damage is responsible for killing the foe where it changes the action economy equation.

Compared to his other At Will, this power averages 8 points of damage per round against 3 foes at level 11 (without considering feats or class features). His other At Will averages 12 points of damage against a single foe. It just seems that 24 points of damage spread over 3 targets is better than 12 points spread over one target in the long run.

 

[Garthanos]

It is against minions.

yup throwing minons in to battle pictures shakes up conventional wisdom about the value of damage doesn't it?

Spreading damage over multiple foes is more likely to ensure that the damage is actually felt and not wasted.

Except if it goes wasted because there are not enough foes to spread it between it explicitly does get wasted.

I like the situational differences between powers... these are only subtly different but... over the course of the battle eventually focus fire... gains.

Take down 3 opponents in 3 rounds --- versus ---- take down 1 in 1 round then a second in the second round and a third in the third round. The party is better defended by the second option... but with minions in the picture... it becomes take down 3 in round 1.

At times the number of minions in game really has some tactical impact on the value of things... sure strike considered amongst the least of at wills in the game doesn't look so bad when "here there be minions". It sure makes sense not to clump them on the scene or send them in as reinforcement waves - so they can have there impact.

 

[FrozenChrono]

The avenger/invoker hybrid multiclassed to cleric to get one paragon path power and basically nothing else just isn't the way we roll.

Yep. That's exacty what I said. If he's not playing D&D the way my group plays it, he's playing it wrong. Not only should he not play in my group, he shouldn't play in any group anywhere. Ninjas should hunt him down and take his dice away.

Yep, cept the ninja's I keep around for guards I had MC into ranger to get twinstrike and have proficiency with a bow that can shoot daggers . . .

Mostly I like the whole PP for Radiant Servant. Lots of cool powers plus keeping it Divine themed felt right. I mentioned the 19-20 crit range because it was relevant to the Radiant Hand discussion.

Does the party need you in the line of battle? If not, I'd consider Cleric|Invoker for the extra healing for the party, and take Sacred Flame for the other at-will. Use a Staff of Ruin for an implement, since a hybrid can use any of his class implements for all powers, and pick the Encounter and Daily powers for status effects and party health. Lower HP and much lower AC of course, but I think the Cleric powers are much better than the Avenger ones.

Part of the reason I like the Avenger is the character was originally conceptually a paladin, I've moved away from that a lot but I still want to use a hammer and be able to get into melee. I agree that a cleric would be a slightly better combination but I'm also trying to work within what my party needs, which includes being in the front lines at times.



I understand the DPR plus crit effects once in epic stack very well. When I first came up with this concept I didn't even know Punishing Radiance existed. I still think it's less powerful than encounter powers, and even twin strike. The possibility of critting, are low enough and random enough that you can't count on them for big damage when you need it. Another side effect of counting on spike damage is that it often will show up when you don't need it. A baddie down to 10 hp getting crit wastes a lot of damage.


At epic people can get Arcane characters at wills to at least the same level of damage and zone control. There's a feat that removes allies from your AOE, you can add thunder damage to bursts and blasts with arcane admixture and increase their area, then you can stack on a wizard MC to pick up enlarge spell and increase the area by 1 again. Grab quicked spell casting and a few white raven feats maybe even throw in dual implement. Imagine a wizard or any arcane class using an at will with even half those additions, Hand of Radiance starts to look a little more tame..

You couldn't swap Mordenkrad for Dual Implement Spellcaster, since that only affects arcane powers.

Thanks, hadn't really looked into it.

if the DM doesn't think this is balanced, choose one of the perfectly balanced single classes from PHB1. Like the Orb Wizard or Bow Ranger.

Thanks, I know it's better than a lot of the other options in the class but I agree, there are way more broken synergies out there.

 

[KarinsDad]

I like the situational differences between powers... these are only subtly different but... over the course of the battle eventually focus fire... gains.

Although as a general rule of thumb, focus fire is the way to go, one must remember that it is not 100% the status quo.

With 5 PCs and 5 foes, it is extremely rare to have all 5 PCs targeting the same foe (at least in any game I've been in). But the focus fire philosophy indicates that this is what should be done to improve the action economy the fastest. And while that is true, it rarely happens in a game.

Instead, one might have a Striker and Defender attacking one foe and another Defender and a Leader attacking a second foe. These two mini-battles might be 15 feet apart from each other. In this scenario which will be more common than 5 against 1, the Controller could use a different At Will to focus fire on one foe or the other, or he could use Hand of Radiance to effectively get 3 attacks against the 2 foes, and another attack against a 3rd foe. Using Hand of Radiance, he is still doing focus fire. Not quite as powerful, but still 3 attacks in a round against 2 foes instead of 2 attacks against one and 3 against another.

 

[keterys]

I suspect part of the difference in opinion over this one may lay in what people want out of controllers.

Personally, I'm a big fan of enlarged scorching burst, normal thunderwave, hand of radiance, etc for providing a tangible and obvious reason to include a controller in your group. Of course, I'd guess that a sorcerer would stlll work out better for most groups... but controller has suffered a bad rep in the wizard from what I've seen, often considered the very first role to ditch in party building, so I'm far more willing to see them get a leg up.

Like I said, if Magic Missile had worked like Hand of Radiance, I doubt we'd have seen many complaints.

 

[KarinsDad]

I still think it's less powerful than encounter powers, and even twin strike. The possibility of critting, are low enough and random enough that you can't count on them for big damage when you need it.

Twin Strike is arguably one of the best damage Striker powers in the game when combined with Hunter's Quarry.

Even so, at level 11 (shy of other feats and abilities) with a 22 stat (like your PC has) and a +3 magic weapon, damage over 20 rounds for average same level foes is:

TS Melee Longsword: +17 vs AC 25, D8+3+6+7, first attack = 7 misses, 12 hits (20.5 per), 1 critical (34.5 per), + second attack = 7/20 * (7 misses, 12 hits (20.5 per), 1 critical (34.5 per)) + 13/20 * (7 misses, 12 hits (13.5 per), 1 critical (27.5 per)) = 502 damage, ~25 per round

TS Melee Longbow: +16 vs AC 25, D10+3+6+7, first attack = 8 misses, 11 hits (21.5 per), 1 critical (36.5 per), + second attack = 8/20 * (8 misses, 11 hits (21.5 per), 1 critical (36.5 per)) + 12/20 * (8 misses, 11 hits (14.5 per), 1 critical (29.5 per)) = 496 damage, ~25 per round

Hand of Radiance: +14 vs Reflex 23, D4+3+6, each attack = 8 misses, 11 hits (11.5 per), 1 critical (23.5 per) = 450 damage, ~22.5 per round

I consider 90% of vanilla Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry damage to be pretty darn powerful. Striker level powerful, not Controller level powerful. And unlike Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry, this is without any class features. This is straight up the At Will power plus magic weapon and nothing else.

Sure, Twin Strike can be used against one foe and hence is more focused fire. Sure, Twin Strike can be beefed up a lot with feats. Sure, Twin Strike is still great against solos (that's why the game system has two+ At Wills per PC, not one). On the other hand, Hand of Radiance is not limited to the nearest enemy like Hunter's Quarry, does radiant damage, and can kill 3 minions in a round instead of 2.

But to even have a non-Striker At Will in the same ballpark as the generally considered borderline broken Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry is to consider that At Will auto-borderline broken as well.

Note: At level 10, Hand of Radiance does slightly more damage than vanilla Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry. TS + HQ gets the 11th level HQ boost to surge ahead.

The fact that you need to pull Twin Strike into the conversation to justify a "it's not too powerful" POV indicates a potential problem with Hand of Radiance.

Another side effect of counting on spike damage is that it often will show up when you don't need it. A baddie down to 10 hp getting crit wastes a lot of damage.

This is going to happen when the At Wills are pulled out anyway, regardless of the type of At Will attacks being used. Many of the Encounters and Dailies that are going to be cast in the encounter have been, so players start using At Wills more. This occurs typically near the mid-point to end of the battle where foes are often blooded and hence, the odds of this occurring are greater.

 

[KarinsDad]

Like I said, if Magic Missile had worked like Hand of Radiance, I doubt we'd have seen many complaints.

I think you are mistaken.

When you see the sheer amount of damage that Hand of Radiance does compared to Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry, I think a lot of math geeks would have jumped on that right away as Magic Missile being the best At Will in the game system for a Controller.

 

[keterys]

I'm not sure how best to explain this. Stop comparing single damage to hitting several targets. You're making your case very badly.

The ranger is killing one guy. The controller is killing several guys. This is _good_ and _right_. In fact, if the controller weren't dealing more damage overall when he hits three different targets than a striker when he hits one that would be clear and present indication of a problem in the system.

For example, the equally ludicrous counterexample to yours:
Twin Strike single target: ~25 per round
Hand of Radiance single target: ~7.5 per round

Clearly, Hand of Radiance is broken and needs to deal twice as much damage, at least, to compare. Hey, whattya know, that's wrong.

So, yes, if in the PH the Wizard was king of the roost for hitting multiple enemies and the ranger or rogue was best at oblitering one guy... I wouldn't have minded. It would have solved some serious, serious problems I have with the Wizard class. That said, I'd personally have preferred if they were solved by things like the Wizard getting +1 to burst sizes and +1 target on any ranged attack, then his powers being otherwise in line with everyone else's... cause that woulda really been a good baseline for controller class features, like striker damage, but that's not the route they went.