Hand of Radiance too powerful?

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure how best to explain this. Stop comparing single damage to hitting several targets. You're making your case very badly.

I was responding to his Twin Strike post. I already did a comparison with Scorching Burst. Yes, I agree multi-target should be compared against multi-target. I've already done that in this thread.

The ranger is killing one guy. The controller is killing several guys. This is _good_ and _right_. In fact, if the controller weren't dealing more damage overall when he hits three different targets than a striker when he hits one that would be clear and present indication of a problem in the system.

The issue is that unlike the Wizard controller, this power gives the uber ability to target three targets as long as there are three targets, regardless of most other factors. It is similar in utility as Divine area effects that only target enemies. It's the reason that Clerics can be better damage dealers and better controllers than Wizards with area spells.

The possibility of targeting more than two foes with an At Will beyond the first round is ludicrously small for Wizards since a) the NPCs are not that cooperating, and b) targetting them with an area Encounter or Daily makes more sense in those scenarios where the caster can get 3, 4, or even more foes at once.

I have no problem with the area effect spell doing more damage than a Striker because of it's limited utility.

I have a problem with a 3 target At Will doing as much or more damage than the best Striker At Will in the game system because it can be used every single round when facing multiple foes. It has virtually no limited utility compared to an area effect that also targets allies. Pros without the Cons.

For example, the equally ludicrous counterexample to yours:
Twin Strike single target: ~25 per round
Hand of Radiance single target: ~7.5 per round

Clearly, Hand of Radiance is broken and needs to deal twice as much damage, at least, to compare. Hey, whattya know, that's wrong.

That's why all PCs get at least two At Will powers. So that the proper one can be used in the proper situation. It doesn't change how uber this At Will power is, just because there are a few limited situations where a different one is better.


The combination of increasing crit range and doing additional strong damage on a crit to the foe plus the targets around the foe just makes it that much worse to have a 3 target At Will power.

 

[FrozenChrono]

Twin Strike is arguably one of the best damage Striker powers in the game when combined with Hunter's Quarry.

Even so, at level 11 (shy of other feats and abilities) with a 22 stat (like your PC has) and a +3 magic weapon, damage over 20 rounds for average same level foes is:

TS Melee Longsword: +17 vs AC 25, D8+3+6+7, first attack = 7 misses, 12 hits (20.5 per), 1 critical (34.5 per), + second attack = 7/20 * (7 misses, 12 hits (20.5 per), 1 critical (34.5 per)) + 13/20 * (7 misses, 12 hits (13.5 per), 1 critical (27.5 per)) = 502 damage, ~25 per round

TS Melee Longbow: +16 vs AC 25, D10+3+6+7, first attack = 8 misses, 11 hits (21.5 per), 1 critical (36.5 per), + second attack = 8/20 * (8 misses, 11 hits (21.5 per), 1 critical (36.5 per)) + 12/20 * (8 misses, 11 hits (14.5 per), 1 critical (29.5 per)) = 496 damage, ~25 per round

Hand of Radiance: +14 vs Reflex 23, D4+3+6, each attack = 8 misses, 11 hits (11.5 per), 1 critical (23.5 per) = 450 damage, ~22.5 per round

Thank you for including that. So without feats or significant magic items twin strike (which my DM allows) does more damage than Hand of Radiance, and it's focus fire damage. If you were to include feats and magic items I suspect Twin Strike would outpace Radiant hand simply because there are more of them. The feats and magic items that help rangers with this at-will (d8 for hunters quarry, superior weapons, weapon focus, bracers of archery) are going to help them with all of their attacks. Many of the feats that work for hand of radiance only work for radiant powers (near 2/3 of my powers so I'm aware it's not too much less), and there are far fewer feats and magic items to keep up with twin strike.

My DM allows twin strike maybe it's time to take a look at that?

I consider 90% of vanilla Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry damage to be pretty darn powerful. Striker level powerful, not Controller level powerful. And unlike Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry, this is without any class features. This is straight up the At Will power plus magic weapon and nothing else.

Part of the job of a controller is to spread damage around to lots of targets. Doing nearly striker damage to 3 targets is still a lot different than focus fire. Also unlike twin strike there are situations where this power will not be useful.

Sure, Twin Strike can be used against one foe and hence is more focused fire. Sure, Twin Strike can be beefed up a lot with feats. Sure, Twin Strike is still great against solos (that's why the game system has two+ At Wills per PC, not one). On the other hand, Hand of Radiance is not limited to the nearest enemy like Hunter's Quarry, does radiant damage, and can kill 3 minions in a round instead of 2.

That seems reasonable to me.

Note: At level 10, Hand of Radiance does slightly more damage than vanilla Twin Strike plus Hunter's Quarry. TS + HQ gets the 11th level HQ boost to surge ahead.

That's fair to mention, but I'd like to point out once again the effect items + feats have for twin strike will be much more beneficial.

The fact that you need to pull Twin Strike into the conversation to justify a "it's not too powerful" POV indicates a potential problem with Hand of Radiance.

My DM allows twin strike in his campaigns and apparently hand of radiance isn't quite as powerful. He's thinking about not letting me use hand of radiance because it's too powerful. I see no reason not to take that into consideration.

Plus my DM digs logic, and I suspect this will speak to him.

Many of the Encounters and Dailies that are going to be cast in the encounter have been, so players start using At Wills more. This occurs typically near the mid-point to end of the battle where foes are often blooded and hence, the odds of this occurring are greater.

Because part of my build focuses on crits that part of my build will be less effective due to this.

The ranger is killing one guy. The controller is killing several guys. This is _good_ and _right_. In fact, if the controller weren't dealing more damage overall when he hits three different targets than a striker when he hits one that would be clear and present indication of a problem in the system.

This is how I see controllers and strikers working. Remember controllers have fewer hp, worse armor, and frequently worse class abilities than strikers. They have status effects with their powers, but that's not the only reason they're there. Spreading damage to multiple targets is part of their shtick. If their powers that only do damage can't at least deal enough to several enemies to keep up with a striker hitting one enemy then there's a problem.

 

[keterys]

Well, Hand of Radiance is _clearly_ on the upper crust of at-wills. If your DM is uncomfortable with the ability, you probably should either pick another at-will, or voluntarily suggest ways it can be reduced in power.

Twin Strike, Hand of Radiance, Thunderwave, Knockdown Assault, Sacred Flame... which of those do you object to, in terms of power scale?

If you add in enlarge spell, how about scorching burst or the sorcerer radiant AoE?

Howling Strike or Pressing Strike?

Fwiw, I'd consider Thunderwave a better contender for encounter power than Hand of Radiance. Knockdown Assault is just mean for heavy blade opportunity (great one for half-elf paladins, for instance) or combined with horned helm or similar things to make it a damage roll. Sacred Flame is extraordinary.

And hey, we already know how effective Twin Strike is.

I actually object more to Ray of Frost than I do to Hand of Radiance. That said, I thought Divine Bolts was an adequate power, so I think they slipped their mark with Hand of Radiance. Not enough that I'd bother houseruling it most likely, but if it had dealt static Wisdom modifier damage I'd have still considered it for my invoker - much tougher call though.

Personally, I'd suggest just making Hand of Radiance two targets, call it a day. It compares nicely to Divine Bolts (1 less damage, deals radiant). Done.

 

[Flipguarder]

Now that Im finally at a computer that has the internet, I can respond to some of the points made in this thread.

Things to note:

1. I am the DM of this character.
2. I don't use minions with 1hp very often. They usually have something like pcs level X 3 hp.
3. I believe like Keterys and Chrono, that you can't simply judge the dpr of a controller next to a striker in optimal situation. An area burst 1 is going to do WAY more damage than a striker normally can if there are 9 enemies there.

That being said. The problem I have with this build is it banks a lot on critting all the time, and then stacks tons of stuff to happen WHEN he crits. This just leads to ridiculous spike damage, and often.
I talked to Frozen in person and asked if this was a reasonable solution:

Make non-crit hand of radiance do similar damage to what it does now but make it only 3 targets instead of 4.

His response to this was that it might or might not make the character undesirable.

This is a problem. If I'm lowering the crit chance of one power and keeping everything else the same, and that even makes you contemplate the character as desirable, I have a huge problem with that character. Simply because like has been pointed out, the effects that come from a can just get ridiculous at high levels. Giving an at-will effectively a 30% crit chance (by the way, there are 6 people in the campaign, so the likelyhood of there not being at least 4 enemies on the field at any given point is not a huge selling point), makes these effects just stupid in my opinion.

Just with an item and a feat on the top of my head available to anyone (not including anything else), the extra damage ona crit at his starting level would be 5d6 + 3d6 + 1d10t. And that is with just some av2 bracers and devestating critical. Thats not anywhere near the amount of crap I assume he's planning on stacking on a crit. And that would be on 1 attack out of 4, each of which have a 10% chance to crit. and that would be at-will.

If you wanna compare twin strike thats fine, I get that it's powerful. But its power has a limit, and that limit works within the confines of what is expected for characters to do. having 4 attacks and a 19-20 crit range is on the very high end of what % of crit is even possible. to get that at-will and then cram some benefits on top of that is unreasonable imo. And fyi I would have the same problem with the household common "chargebot barbarian".

At the end of the day you can disagree with all that. The simple fact is, my small nerf on the crit chance of one at-will is enough to prompt him to think about scrapping the character. That is enough for me to have a problem with this guy.

 

[Flipguarder]

Id also like to point out that the only problem I have with hand of radiance is this specific build. If someone doesn't have a 19-20 implement, and/or doesn't bank several feats and items on crit benefits, then I would completely allow this power no problem.

 

[keterys]

I think I posted in another thread, but yeah - if the basis for your character revolves around gaming one at-will, and a nerf to that plan scraps the character - you're just better off with a different character. One trick ponies just aren't a good thing for the game. If you can roll with minor changes, are happy with all the encounters and other powers, fine, great.

 

[Flipguarder]

He claims that it isn't a one trick pony. I find that hard to believe if he didn't like his build after reducing his one at-will to 3 attacks.

Frozen, I know I'm being hard on ya... and I'm sorry. Im just not a fan of this guy...

 

[Obryn]

This one is out of left field, but it may help.

You could perhaps limit the targeting on Hand of Radiance, rather than messing with the number of attacks. I think it would be better-balanced if all the targets were within a Burst radius... Say Burst 1 or 2, until 21st at which point it turns into Burst 2 or 3. (Or, if you like more complexity/flexibility, make it so each target can be no more than 2 squares away from at least one other target.)

While this is absolutely a major nerf, it basically turns it into an Area power that doesn't hurt your buddies. It brings it more in line with both Vanguard's Lightning and Divine Bolts. I think that's a fair trade-off for a slightly smaller damage die - especially when you're doing Radiant damage.

-O

 

[FrozenChrono]

This one is out of left field, but it may help.

You could perhaps limit the targeting on Hand of Radiance, rather than messing with the number of attacks. I think it would be better-balanced if all the targets were within a Burst radius... Say Burst 1 or 2, until 21st at which point it turns into Burst 2 or 3. (Or, if you like more complexity/flexibility, make it so each target can be no more than 2 squares away from at least one other target.)

I really like this idea. I'm willing to give up some and general use flexibility for the possibility of getting a lot of hits in when using clever party tactics and positioning. If it were nerfed I'd be pretty okay with something like this.

Special: Each target must be within 3 squares of another target of this power. Maybe bump it to 4 at level 21.

 

[Flipguarder]

Honestly I want a nerf I can count on... does that make any sense?

I don't want to go out of my way to make a power less powerful only to have to work with monster strategy to actually implement the nerf. This is a situational nerf...

Personally just not a fan, thanks for the idea though Obryn