Harassment At PaizoCon 2017

In our post-Harvey Weinstein world, more and more people in the various entertainment industries are coming forward with allegations of abuse and harassment, both sexual and psychological. The tabletop gaming industry isn't isolated from this wave of revelation as incidents surface, and will likely continue to surface about professionals, and fans, within the gaming communities.

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In our post-Harvey Weinstein world, more and more people in the various entertainment industries are coming forward with allegations of abuse and harassment, both sexual and psychological. The tabletop gaming industry isn't isolated from this wave of revelation as incidents surface, and will likely continue to surface about professionals, and fans, within the gaming communities.


Stories of harassment within tabletop gaming, at conventions and stores, and even in local gaming groups are nothing new. That is probably the saddest fact of this whole thing: that despite stories being brought to light, not only does harassment continue to happen but the existence of it continues to be denied by some. This denial is one of the factors that allows abuse and harassment to continue within tabletop RPGs.

Allegations of improper behavior at the 2017 PaizoCon by Frog God Games CEO Bill Webb were brought to life by Pathfinder content creator Robert Brookes. Brookes was attending PaizoCon and has written for Paizo and Legendary Games, among others. In an incident involving alcohol, Webb allegedly sexually harassed another guest at the convention and when a staffer attempted to intervene and injury occurred with the staffer.

In a thread about harassment and abuse on gaming forum RPGNet, Frog God Games partner Matt Finch, creator of the Swords & Wizardry retroclone, confirmed that the incident with Webb occurred, and revealed some details about an internal investigation that the partners of Frog God Games conducted into the incident:

"I am Matt Finch, the partner of Frog God Games appointed by the partners to investigate a sexual harassment complaint filed against Mr. Webb at PaizoCon 2017. Mr. Webb was not consulted by the partners on this decision. Due to recent accusations made on Twitter by a third party, I will outline the aspects of the situation to the extent that they do not compromise the confidentiality of the person who filed the report, I will describe the nature of our internal investigation, and will also address the recently-raised tweets by Robert Brookes on his twitter feed. This report will not necessarily be updated; it stands for itself at the time of posting, based on the knowledge I currently have.

"First, it is correct that a complaint was filed with Paizo at PaizoCon against Bill. I was made aware of this by phone on the day it happened (I was not present at the convention). Frog God is aware of the identity of the person who made the complaint, because they spoke to three of our partners at the convention after the event. We have not been invited to share that person’s identity, and although we are not under legal obligation to protect that confidentiality we have elected to respect that person’s desire not to have the event brought into the spotlight.

"Gathering information in a situation like this is necessarily limited due to Paizo’s own confidentiality obligations. To assemble information, I spoke to the three partners who had talked with the person who filed the complaint, and obtained their accounts of what they were told. Secondhand accounts are not perfect, and I had to weigh that against the fact that an attorney making direct contact with someone who has filed such a report can be seen as a threat or intimidation, and weighing those two issues, I chose to rely on a comparison of the conversations between the individual and our partners, plus Paizo’s own resolution of the matter at the time, plus a necessarily-cautious review of Bill’s account. There has been contact between the person who filed the complaint and Frog God partners since the event, and I will provide a screenshot of one such communication with the name redacted. I believe the screenshot provides a great deal of clarification.

"Reducing the event to a level that will maintain confidentiality, my understanding based on my investigation was that Bill Webb took an action and engaged in speech that could be construed as a sexual advance or as gender-dismissive.

"In consequence of this finding, I and another senior partner of the company had a meeting with Mr. Webb about expectations, standards of behavior, and future protocol. We addressed that one’s lack of bad intentions does not excuse problematic behavior.

"Some people have asked that Mr. Webb acknowledge and apologize for the situation. Bill does deeply regret his actions, and understands that they were inappropriate and upsetting. I have told Mr. Webb not to contact the person directly, for the same reason that I have not done so myself: the potential for that contact to appear intimidating or threatening. However, at whatever time the person lets us know that a direct apology from Mr. Webb would be welcomed, that apology will be immediately forthcoming. Mr. Webb is also under instruction not to discuss this matter in public, in case peripheral details were to be inadvertently disclosed that might allow the identification of the person by another party. This is also the reason we chose to have me, as the investigating partner, write the public report, given that a report has become necessary in response to a recent description of the event on Twitter."


We reached out to Webb for comment upon this incident, and we were directed to the RPGNet post by Finch. This is the company's official statement on what happened at PaizoCon. Whether or not there will be further repercussions within Frog God Games due to this incident and Webb's actions remain to be seen.

Paizo CEO Lisa Stevens has released an official statement on the incident on the Paizo forums. When EN World reached out to Paizo for official comment, we were directed to this statement:

"My name is Lisa Stevens and I am the CEO and owner of Paizo Inc. Events of the past few weeks have compelled me to make this statement.

"My company will never condone any sexual harassment or assault against any of our employees, male or female. We will never condone any sexual harassment or assault against any of our customers on paizo.com or at sanctioned organized play activities. Whenever I hear any allegations of sexual harassment or assault related to Paizo’s activities, I always immediately drop whatever I'm doing and I make getting to the bottom of these issues my top priority. We have banned people from paizo.com. We have banned people from participating in our organized play activities. We have stopped doing business with individuals. And we will continue to do so.
"As a woman and a survivor of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape, I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of these attacks. I know what it is like to feel the shame, the terror, how it changes your life forever. And because of this, I will never stand for my company to condone this behavior.

"Paizo’s employees are encouraged to come forward with any allegations of sexual harassment or assault and let a manager know as soon as possible. If criminal activities have taken place, they are encouraged to report it to the police and take legal action against the perpetrator. We have asked our employees to not engage in explosive and angry dialogue on paizo.com. We want our website to be a place where our customers feel safe and among friends. If there is problem on paizo.com, then our community team will handle it and, where appropriate, ban the perpetrator.

"In closing, you have my word that I have zero tolerance for sexual harassment and assault, and the same is true of Paizo. Please be aware that we treat these issues with tremendous sensitivity, and only disclose the specifics and resolutions of any such incidents on a need-to-know basis, even within Paizo or with our legal counsel. We do not and will not discuss these matters publicly. Every instance that I am aware of has been thoroughly investigated, and appropriate actions have been taken or are in the process of being taken. You have my word on this."


Unrelated to the PaizoCon incident, Brookes also revealed an incident of harassment within the Pathfinder Society organized play program. When a volunteer staffer reported this incident, their supervisor informed them that an NDA they had signed to be part of the program would not allow her to discuss this incident. Paizo has not officially commented on this incident or commented on whether or not there is an investigation into it.

If tabletop role-playing games are truly going to be an inclusive, we have to be better about not just reporting incidents of abuse and harassment but being dedicated to creating spaces that are safe and free of harassment of our fellow gamers. We also need to shine a spotlight onto the incidents of harassment that occur, it is the responsibility of journalists, bloggers and gamers to do this and let people know that their actions will come to light and that they will be held responsible. It is also important to not just talk about those parts of the gaming communities that we don't agree with, but to also bring to light the improper actions of those companies and communities with whom we do agree, because unless every act of harassment is revealed there will be no change within our communities.

Remember that EN World is an inclusive community.
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If someone tells me that his loved one got murdered, I believe him. Someone that has been robbed? The same. Strangely I believe what I hear and I sympathize with the person telling me his story. I don't ask "did your loved one said something to his killer before the shooting?". But that's one thing. The crime happened. Who is the murderer? I don't know and I am still going to doubt until the trial ends.

Exacltly, you are comparing to very black and white crimes to a very grey crime. Would you automatically go out and beat the hell out of Ed because Joe said he stole $50 from him? No you would not. But when it come to rape most people go well beyond sympathy and turn their sympathy into rather major attacks on the person being accused and as the Duke case proved that is very dangerous.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Exacltly, you are comparing to very black and white crimes to a very grey crime. Would you automatically go out and beat the hell out of Ed because Joe said he stole $50 from him? No you would not. But when it come to rape most people go well beyond sympathy and turn their sympathy into rather major attacks on the person being accused and as the Duke case proved that is very dangerous.

AGAIN: noone is asking you to do anything more than believe the victim. Not attack someone. Not do anything at all. Just believe them.
 

AGAIN: noone is asking you to do anything more than believe the victim. Not attack someone. Not do anything at all. Just believe them.

They have already argued with moderation, called people stupid, said they were leaving the thread but posted more, been thread banned, and then posted again. So I’d recommend dropping this and moving along. They aren’t interested in listening to anyone, even Morrus.
 
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S

Sunseeker

Guest
They have already argued with moderation, been thread banned, and then posted again, so I’d recommend dropping this and moving along. They aren’t interested in listening to anyone, even Morrus.

Yeah, I know, and I don't have anything more to add to them anyway.
 


aramis erak

Legend
I think the whole of western civilization is already gone way too far into hypersensitivity, and people need to accept that most other people do not care about their feelings except as those feelings directly impact the person acting/speaking.

Basic anthropological theory - the monkeysphere. People really only are concerned about around 100-150 individuals at most. Those are the ones they deal with the most.

I don't think verbal sexual advances are, themselves, the problem; if they are, humanity is doomed. (If you can't ask for sex, you can't get consent, and if you can't get consent, all sex is then relegated to rape.)

That they persisted after a "No" or "Not Interested" is. Until that point, the person propositioned is not a victim, save perhaps of their own internal issues. It's only after the No that they can be the victim of verbal harassment.

Now, that the guy pursued physically, that's a whole 'nother issue - one that should be settled in court, not on the internet. And if convicted, the perp should get time in a cage. But discussions on the board amount to grounds for a slander suit if it's not proven in court.

Just to give example of the point in the first post:
I am making an attempt to sway opinion, not because I really care what you think, but because too many people hold an opinion that interferes with my life, and I want less of said interference, and less of the nuisance of people making mountains out of molehills on boards where I want to see discussions of games, not "Modern Rape Culture"... My adherence to board rules isn't because I care what Morrus thinks, but because the board has value to me for the games discussion and not following the rules results in not being allowed into the discussions. I'm not a sociopath; there are many people whose opinions matter to me; not a one of them is active on this board as far as I know. I don't really care if I offend others sensibilities; I'm not here to make friends, but to engage in discussions that I gain some value of - some mere entertainment, others access to resources, others still challenging my perceptions of certain games, and making me reevaluate them.
 

I think the whole of western civilization is already gone way too far into hypersensitivity, and people need to accept that most other people do not care about their feelings except as those feelings directly impact the person acting/speaking.

Basic anthropological theory - the monkeysphere. People really only are concerned about around 100-150 individuals at most. Those are the ones they deal with the most.

I don't think verbal sexual advances are, themselves, the problem; if they are, humanity is doomed. (If you can't ask for sex, you can't get consent, and if you can't get consent, all sex is then relegated to rape.)

That they persisted after a "No" or "Not Interested" is. Until that point, the person propositioned is not a victim, save perhaps of their own internal issues. It's only after the No that they can be the victim of verbal harassment.

Now, that the guy pursued physically, that's a whole 'nother issue - one that should be settled in court, not on the internet. And if convicted, the perp should get time in a cage. But discussions on the board amount to grounds for a slander suit if it's not proven in court.

Just to give example of the point in the first post:
I am making an attempt to sway opinion, not because I really care what you think, but because too many people hold an opinion that interferes with my life, and I want less of said interference, and less of the nuisance of people making mountains out of molehills on boards where I want to see discussions of games, not "Modern Rape Culture"... My adherence to board rules isn't because I care what Morrus thinks, but because the board has value to me for the games discussion and not following the rules results in not being allowed into the discussions. I'm not a sociopath; there are many people whose opinions matter to me; not a one of them is active on this board as far as I know. I don't really care if I offend others sensibilities; I'm not here to make friends, but to engage in discussions that I gain some value of - some mere entertainment, others access to resources, others still challenging my perceptions of certain games, and making me reevaluate them.

Citations needed. :)

From my education in evolutionary psychology, ethics, and even personal life experiences, I’m pretty sure the majority of your premises are factually wrong and you provide no evidence to the contrary. With faulty premises, the whole argument falls apart.

So I guess I will gladly continuing trying to prevent sexual harassment even if that work inconveniences you. (Or if you want discussions about gaming and not sexual harassment, don’t read threads that literally have the word “harassment” in the title. Shouldn’t be too much of an inconvenience.)
 

evilref

Explorer
I think the whole of western civilization is already gone way too far into hypersensitivity, and people need to accept that most other people do not care about their feelings except as those feelings directly impact the person acting/speaking.

Basic anthropological theory - the monkeysphere. People really only are concerned about around 100-150 individuals at most. Those are the ones they deal with the most.

I don't think verbal sexual advances are, themselves, the problem; if they are, humanity is doomed. (If you can't ask for sex, you can't get consent, and if you can't get consent, all sex is then relegated to rape.)

That they persisted after a "No" or "Not Interested" is. Until that point, the person propositioned is not a victim, save perhaps of their own internal issues. It's only after the No that they can be the victim of verbal harassment.

Now, that the guy pursued physically, that's a whole 'nother issue - one that should be settled in court, not on the internet. And if convicted, the perp should get time in a cage. But discussions on the board amount to grounds for a slander suit if it's not proven in court.

Just to give example of the point in the first post:
I am making an attempt to sway opinion, not because I really care what you think, but because too many people hold an opinion that interferes with my life, and I want less of said interference, and less of the nuisance of people making mountains out of molehills on boards where I want to see discussions of games, not "Modern Rape Culture"... My adherence to board rules isn't because I care what Morrus thinks, but because the board has value to me for the games discussion and not following the rules results in not being allowed into the discussions. I'm not a sociopath; there are many people whose opinions matter to me; not a one of them is active on this board as far as I know. I don't really care if I offend others sensibilities; I'm not here to make friends, but to engage in discussions that I gain some value of - some mere entertainment, others access to resources, others still challenging my perceptions of certain games, and making me reevaluate them.

This is a massive collection of MRA rubbish.

It directly ignores actual real changes in sexual assault as a result of teaching about consent, and abuse and rape:

https://www.ndtv.com/education/how-...ya-reduced-cases-of-sexual-harassment-1767943

This post is trying to define that it's perfectly okay for men to say whatever they want to women, and only after they say 'no thanks' do they become victims. Cat calling when walking down the street, is harassment. Using a linked in business connection to sexually proposition or send unsolicited sexually provocative messages, is harassment. What Mentzer sent to Jessica Price, is harassment.

Quite apart from all the MRA rubbish it espouses, it's ignoring that Bill Webb sexually harassed and pursued BJ Hensley at PaizoCon, once again there's no concern for the victim. Ohh, wait, there is, only to then claim that it's only harassment if it goes to court, and otherwise it's slander. I guess Webb's excuse for a back-routed apology for harassing her doesn't count - that's admitting it by the way. To the best of anyone's knowledge, because Paizo have refused to comment and haven't denied the witnesses' statements to the contrary, he's not been banned from attenting, and nor have Frog God Games sanctioned him in any way.

because too many people hold an opinion that interferes with my life
Would that be the opinion that you shouldn't be sexually harassing people?
 
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redrick

First Post
I think the whole of western civilization is already gone way too far into hypersensitivity, and people need to accept that most other people do not care about their feelings except as those feelings directly impact the person acting/speaking.

Basic anthropological theory - the monkeysphere. People really only are concerned about around 100-150 individuals at most. Those are the ones they deal with the most.

I don't think verbal sexual advances are, themselves, the problem; if they are, humanity is doomed. (If you can't ask for sex, you can't get consent, and if you can't get consent, all sex is then relegated to rape.)

That they persisted after a "No" or "Not Interested" is. Until that point, the person propositioned is not a victim, save perhaps of their own internal issues. It's only after the No that they can be the victim of verbal harassment.

Now, that the guy pursued physically, that's a whole 'nother issue - one that should be settled in court, not on the internet. And if convicted, the perp should get time in a cage. But discussions on the board amount to grounds for a slander suit if it's not proven in court.

Just to give example of the point in the first post:
I am making an attempt to sway opinion, not because I really care what you think, but because too many people hold an opinion that interferes with my life, and I want less of said interference, and less of the nuisance of people making mountains out of molehills on boards where I want to see discussions of games, not "Modern Rape Culture"... My adherence to board rules isn't because I care what Morrus thinks, but because the board has value to me for the games discussion and not following the rules results in not being allowed into the discussions. I'm not a sociopath; there are many people whose opinions matter to me; not a one of them is active on this board as far as I know. I don't really care if I offend others sensibilities; I'm not here to make friends, but to engage in discussions that I gain some value of - some mere entertainment, others access to resources, others still challenging my perceptions of certain games, and making me reevaluate them.

Man, for real?

This thread is about a case of sexual harassment where all parties are, more or less, in agreement about the facts. Even the perpetrator has not contested them. Everybody involved seems to be in agreement that the proceedings were sexual harassment.

And we got people dropping in here talking about Duke Lacrosse and some sort of "Monkeysphere" and other people talking about "burning people at the stake."

None of that is relevant. This ain't Duke Lacrosse. These facts have been corroborated by all sorts of witness statement. This ain't some sort of "monkeysphere", because the future of the species does not depend on business owners drunkenly harassing their colleagues. Humans seem to be doing a damn good job at procreating, and we don't seem to have a hard time negotiating consent. Like, seriously, how is that relevant?

You think we are oversensitive to sexual harassment? Every American woman I've ever spoken to about the subject would disagree with you, and, while, as a man, I don't experience much of it personally, putting myself in the shoes of every woman I've ever worked with or spoken with on the subject does not feel pleasant. I have seen sexual harassment in almost every job I've worked in. I've seen supervisors refer to their employees as "Boobs Magee." I've had coworkers tell me of guest speakers who groped them in private, and were simply reassigned to avoid the speaker. (Instead of, you know, sending the :):):):):):):) packing without his honorarium.) I've heard stories from friends who talked, as adolescent girls, of walking past businessmen who called out to them, "Show me your p----!" This stuff has been around for as long as I've been alive. We are hearing about it so much now because of the hard work of feminists to bring it out into the light and force society as a whole to take it seriously. And it is my hope that, by talking about it, by criticizing and sanctioning the bad actors, by taking the stigma off of the victims and onto the perpetrators, in this one small area, we can make things better.

I hope Frog God Games takes some action to demonstrate how seriously they take sexual harassment, as their statement declared. Bill Webb probably shouldn't be representing his company at cons — he doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. I hope that Webb issues a sincere apology and does some soul searching about what he needs to change in his life, and I hope that the victim can stop getting dragged as part of some abstract theorizing about gray areas.

----EDITED TO ADD-----
I'm just a stranger on the internet and I don't know BJ Hensley and I don't want to use her experience as a battleground against sexism, rape culture and mra nonsense. I was a customer of Bill Webb's up until very recently, and as was suggested upthread, I'll be contacting them to let them know why I won't be purchasing any of their products anymore, or using the products of theirs I have at my table anymore.
 
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evilref

Explorer
Basic anthropological theory - the monkeysphere. People really only are concerned about around 100-150 individuals at most. Those are the ones they deal with the most.

I wasn't going to quote this, but it has so little to do with the subject that it really needs to be calld out as being nonsensical.

I don't think verbal sexual advances are, themselves, the problem; if they are, humanity is doomed. (If you can't ask for sex, you can't get consent, and if you can't get consent, all sex is then relegated to rape.)

So, let's just parse this out

Barbara, if you want a payrise, you should really be wearing lower-cut tops - not harassment according to this

Bob, if you want that day off, then you need to be putting out more, come into my office and take care of me - not harassment according to this

See someone you like in your workplace, send them a random provocative photo labelled 'what I want to do to you' - not harassment according to this

Someone walking down the street, cat call obscene provocative things - not harassment according to this

Walk up to random person and just casually tell them what sexually provocative thing you're going to do to them - not harassment according to this

etc. etc. etc.

What?
 
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