Harassment in gaming

Dannyalcatraz

Moderator
Staff member
You mean, other than to emphasize the -whiteness- of the attackers...
Because they

1) are primarily white, and

2) she points out similar behavior leveled against POCs, a.k.a. minorities.

and to state that most every other male in the hobby was a coward?
Because they allow visible public harassment to continue without comment.

Then to emphasize the alleged "omnipresence" of the harassment?
How many female ENWorlders who have participated in this thread have claimed they have NOT had similar experiences? I'm thinking the number is between 0 and 1.

Again, it may be exaggeration, but seemingly...unfortunately...not by much.
 

Rottle

Villager
As one of the people who has described incidents and resolutions, I find your statement mystifying.
I don't want to get distracted by arguements over whether a claim one poster makes is exactly true or even verifiable is all. I simply can not know and prove with any degree of certainty that what another poster says is true. I would simply like to focus instead on solutions and not get distracted by arguing if specific events happened. I mean no offense to those who have posted events that support the belief this happens. It simply seems we all agree this is a problem, so why let debate about poster x's claim be a distraction. So I am suggesting we just move to how we help when it does happen.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
and..? Your point..?
The point is the Star-Ledger's data suggest that male criminal behavior in this regard is a bigger problem than female criminal behavior (by a factor of 3 to 1). If the courts (juries and judges) also perceive that, it'll lead to longer sentences.

When a woman is unwilling to come forth to testify, it is because the judicial system is going to victimize them all over again, (the BS liberal metanarrative says).
You got data saying that's not true? That women aren't feeling victimized by the judicial system? That they aren't going to face resistance from the police, they aren't going to face a cross-examination from the defense that will blame them for their own attack?

When men are unwilling to come forth to testify, its their fault they don't get justice (the same metanarrative says)
In the very specific topic you brought up, statutory rape by an adult, analysis suggests boys are substantially less likely to feel they were victimized in the first place. For those who feel that way, they aren't interested in obtaining justice - that's a far cry from being intimidated away from seeking it, something the boys who do feel victimized also have to struggle with.
 

Springheel

Villager
It has been said, repeatedly, that this is a discussion about the harassment of women in gaming.

Now, because the topic merits discussion does not mean that the topic of sexual harassment of men in gaming, and different kinds of harassment of men in gaming in general, is verboten. It just means it's a distraction in this thread.
If that's the case, maybe someone should rename the thread from "Harasment in Gaming" to something that specifies only female harasment should be discussed.
 

cmad1977

Explorer
If that's the case, maybe someone should rename the thread from "Harasment in Gaming" to something that specifies only female harasment should be discussed.
Or people who don't particularly care about women being harassed/threatened/abused in our community by members of our community could refrain from posting in the thread about a topic they don't care about.
 

Eltab

Villager
... I would simply like to focus instead on solutions ... So I am suggesting we just move to how we help when it does happen ...
The process is not as difficult as you (in the plural, not you personally) are making it out to be:
When you see something happening, STAND UP.

It's rather odd being the / a guy who offers solutions to IRL events, but keeps hearing from others "what can / should we do?"
Has it not occurred to folks that they can just imitate me? Are folks conditioned to expect a certain process (meetings, activists holding protests, position papers, Official Announcements, whatever) and they won't move until that all is done? Is there somebody who has to "go first" before folks will follow?
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
The process is not as difficult as you (in the plural, not you personally) are making it out to be:
When you see something happening, STAND UP.
If there was the awareness of the problem and the will to "STAND UP," wouldn't we be seeing more people recounting times when they stood up against harassment happening in their presence? Or more people recounting a time when they were harassed and someone stood up for them? Or even recounting times when they saw someone else stand up for another someone else who was being harassed?

I've said repeatedly in these threads that a lot of people say things like "I wouldn't tolerate that happening in front of me." And that's great. I think that's the page we should all be on. However, in contrast to people like myself and @Elf Witch posting our harassment experiences I can't really recall any accounts of incidents where someone stood up for someone else who was being harassed. @tomBitonti mentioned being involved in two incidents. From the context of his post, I assume he meant in a manner where he intervened on the part of the harassed (though there was no details given as to how he intervened or how well it was received by the people being harassed or by other bystanders, and I won't push him to give those details if he doesn't want to).

It just seems to me that most people, particularly gamers who often have a history of being picked on, have much more of a "keep your head down," "don't make waves," "don't get involved" type of mentality than they do a "hey, that's not right, I have to do/say something" mentality.
 
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tomBitonti

Explorer
Because they

1) are primarily white, and

2) she points out similar behavior leveled against POCs, a.k.a. minorities.

Because they allow visible public harassment to continue without comment.

How many female ENWorlders who have participated in this thread have claimed they have NOT had similar experiences? I'm thinking the number is between 0 and 1.

Again, it may be exaggeration, but seemingly...unfortunately...not by much.
I have to ask: Looking at the base demographic, young adult males, how does the gaming experience compare with the experience in schools. That is, junior and senior high school and undergraduate college? I'm not asking to say the experience isn't bad in either case. I'm wondering if the gaming experience is worse than the school experience -- for the same demographic.

Thx!
TomB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
It just seems to me that most people, particularly gamers who often have a history of being picked on, have much more of a "keep your head down," "don't make waves," "don't get involved" type of mentality than they do a "hey, that's not right, I have to do/say something" mentality.
And, to be honest, they may have witnessed it, and not really understood what they were looking at. See my note about a women getting groped non-consensually, *in the middle of a crowd*, without anyone realizing it wasn't consensual, if they even actually saw it. See the notes of women who have said they don't speak up about how they felt at the time of the event, and how men, who are not in the same position as the victim, may not realize what a comment means to the victim.

Standing up may require keeping a sort of alertness to things we are not used to keeping.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I have to ask: Looking at the base demographic, young adult males, how does the gaming experience compare with the experience in schools. That is, junior and senior high school and undergraduate college? I'm not asking to say the experience isn't bad in either case. I'm wondering if the gaming experience is worse than the school experience -- for the same demographic.

Thx!
TomB
I can't speak to the experiences of other women/girls in schools, but here are mine:

I have not been harassed, sexually or otherwise, at either the graduate or undergrad college level.

I was substantially harassed in a non-sexual manner from the late end of grade school through high school (grades 6-12). Most of this harassment was about my weight, and about the fact that I was one of the poorer students at school. The latter also created other harassment in the form of being ridiculed or looked down upon for not having designer clothes, and for being on the free school lunch program at one point.

There was also some harassment of a sexual nature. At one point in middle school, after I had to start taking showers at school because of a mandatory swimming class (we all had to shower together, with separate showers and locker rooms for boys and girls, before changing back out of our swimsuits and into our school clothes), I was harassed for not developing as much as others my age. Additionally, because I was shy (with all the harassment, I wonder how/why that happened) and didn't get asked out or otherwise go on any dates, there were periodic rumors about my sexuality; with people alternately claiming that I was either homosexual or frigid.

Edit: It's not school related, but I did get irritated with a coworker who runs a register and can't do basic math (and who is always asking me to do it for her). I wasn't yelling at her, but I was very irritated at her, noticeably so. After noticing my irritation, my manager told me, "calm your t***." He and I often joke with each other, even telling jokes of an adult nature, but I have to admit I felt a little uncomfortable.
 
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Sadras

Explorer
It just seems to me that most people, particularly gamers who often have a history of being picked on, have much more of a "keep your head down," "don't make waves," "don't get involved" type of mentality than they do a "hey, that's not right, I have to do/say something" mentality.
That is a good point.

What I have noticed, and I haven't noticed anyone actually mentioning this, except beating the same old "white male hobby" crap, is that at least a number of online posters on Enworld, including myself, have mentioned that they have gamed or still game with their mothers, wives, girlfriends, daughters or their friends' wags. That should mean as the hobby moves into the second and third generation more and more women are being included and one would imagine that these women would not be harrassed (certainly not in their playgroups). If these women are being harrased in their playgroups, then the issue in their instance is a lot more serious than strangers harassing strangers.
 

Springheel

Villager
I can't really recall any accounts of incidents where someone stood up for someone else who was being harassed
I posted an article that included several examples.

Or people who don't particularly care about women being harassed/threatened/abused in our community by members of our community could refrain from posting in the thread about a topic they don't care about.


Where are the people who "don't particularly care"? I think there was one such post in the last 65 pages.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I posted an article that included several examples.
I missed that earlier, and I almost missed your reminder of that link as well. When you took my forum name out of the quote, I didn't get notified that I had been quoted, and with some of the horrible posts that have popped up in both of the harassment threads I've only been giving some of the posts a cursory skimming.

I am glad to see some examples of the gaming community policing itself effectively, so thank you for the link. I will say that I do disagree a little bit with the article you linked to in that I don't think having anti-harassment policies and promoting awareness of the problem is a bad thing.

I also do think that more needs to be done, especially in the arena of having enough camera coverage to catch evidence of gropings and other sexual assault and battery actions that are notoriously difficult to successfully take to the authorities without video evidence. The groping issue is unlikely to seriously affect me, because no one is ever going to see me and think "She's so hot, I wanna get a handful of that." However, cosplayers and other gamers could certainly use the backup if they ever need to file a sexual assault/battery complaint.
 

Catulle

Villager
I posted an article that included several examples.
You posted an article penned by the guy that harassed my (now) wife online and in person a few years back in a pretty awful way, trying to drive her out of a LARP. Since that point, he seems to have written "In defence of rape" (as a cool narrative trope) and snuggled up to GamerGate...

Is this meant to be in some way credible to me?
 
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MechaPilot

Explorer
You posted an article penned by the guy that harassed my (now) wife online a few years back in a pretty awful way. Since that point, he seems to have written "In defence of rape" (as a cool narrative trope) and snuggled up to GamerGate...

Is this meant to be in some way credible to me?
Seriously? Well. . . dang. There goes another piece of my faith in the gaming community.
 

Eltab

Villager
If there was the awareness of the problem and the will to "STAND UP," wouldn't we be seeing more people recounting times when they stood up against harassment happening in their presence? Or more people recounting a time when they were harassed and someone stood up for them? Or even recounting times when they saw someone else stand up for another someone else who was being harassed?
I don't think you are wrong, and I'm not arguing against you.
I wonder if going through K-12 Lutheran school (as opposed to Public school) hasn't provided me with a world-view that allows me to see an act, identify it as a problem, and react accordingly; rather than think "well it must be ok for them" or "they aren't complaining about it" or "it's not my problem".

Start here: WWPD - What Would (a classic Lawful Good) Paladin Do?
Go ye therefore and do likewise.

P.S. in order to anticipate the outraged posts I'm sure are coming,
modified slightly from a "So-and-so is the greatest star ever" Brag Book: BRJN's ego is so big that when he walks in the rain, only the top of his head gets wet.
 

Springheel

Villager
I will say that I do disagree a little bit with the article you linked to in that I don't think having anti-harassment policies and promoting awareness of the problem is a bad thing.
I can see his point, but I would tend to agree more with you on that issue. Anti-harassment policies (that define what is and isn't acceptable at that venue) are good ideas at any conventions where you have thousands of strangers crammed into tight spaces.
 

Hussar

Legend
Something to remember too is that the overwhelming majority of play isn't happening at con's, so, it's probably statistically likely that a lot of the harassment isn't happening at con's either. With things like Encounters and Pathfinder Society, you have an awful lot of gaming going on with strangers on a pretty regular basis.

I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but, back around 15 years ago (the last time I saw any numbers) the RPGA had about 150k members. At a guess, I'd hope Encounters+Pathfinder Society is the same size. Again, I don't know, so, I'm going entirely with my gut.

But, in any case, there's a boatload of strangers playing together in public spaces on a regular basis.

So, the issue of harassment has to be handled at the "grassroots" level as well. FLGS's need to make it abundantly clear that harassment is a thing and it's not tolerated. Clearly post harassment policies in visible places, heck use the Encounters policy and just blow it up to poster size, in the gaming store. The store managers should also probably take a few minutes at the beginning of each Season, to sit down with the DM's for a few minutes (it's not like this takes hours to make clear) that harassment is being taken very seriously and the DM's should be both alert for it and conscious of it when running games.

Organised play, IMO, is a good place to disseminate information and educate people that this sort of thing is totally unacceptable.
 

Hussar

Legend
I can see his point, but I would tend to agree more with you on that issue. Anti-harassment policies (that define what is and isn't acceptable at that venue) are good ideas at any conventions where you have thousands of strangers crammed into tight spaces.

But, again, this is a big point, the overwhelming majority of play isn't done at conventions. And conventions with "thousands of strangers" are comparatively pretty rare. There are far, far more conventions with hundreds of strangers where they simply do not have the resources for dedicated security, policing, video surveillance and whatnot. You wouldn't expect that at a wedding party would you? That's a similar sized gathering.

Anti-harassment policies, like the one you find on Page 9 of the Adventurers League Player's Guide are necessary at all venues not just Gen Con sized ones.

And, on a side note. We've heard numerous stories of female gamers having the DM have an NPC rape the PC during a prisoner situation. How many male gamers have ever had this same scenario occur? Has anyone reading this, if you're male, EVER had your PC raped? Whether the PC is male or female? Killed? Sure. Tortured? Maybe. Raped? I'm pretty sure that it almost never happens. How many stories have you heard where the male DM roleplays a rape with another male player?

All these arguments about "male players matter too" really do miss the point.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
How many stories have you heard where the male DM roleplays a rape with another male player?
Just one, earlier in this thread. I think it was @Sadras who mentioned male-on-male rape happening to one of his characters because the DM thought it was funny.

Edit: I will say that I don't recall if @Sadras said the DM just said that it happened to his character or if the DM tried to make him RP it (as happened in my case).

Edit#2: It was actually [MENTION=31754]Lord Twig[/MENTION], you can find it here.
 
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