Harassment in gaming

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

First, there is NO documentation in her letter which allows actual fact checking of any of her stories.

It's a post to tumblr, not a news expose in the Sunday edition of The New York Times.

People who relate their experiences on a blog or on a place like tumblr are getting their thoughts out, they are talking about their lives, and (in some cases) relating their life experiences.

They are not journalists whom we are required to hold to a certain standard.

Second, you are further victimizing male victims by marginalizing them with the piss poor excuse men are the primary players of RPGs.

This is just the sort of false comparison I was talking about.

One, not incidentally, that has already been discussed at length upthread.

Now then, the issue of women gamers being harassed online (rape threats, death threats, doxing) is widespread. It's been covered online, and to a much lesser degree in print. The topic of harassment at cons and game stories has received less coverage (to my knowledge; somebody correct me here if I am wrong), but the issue is cropping up more and more.

In my observation, when people bring up the issue of sexual harassment of males as a response to the topic of this thread, it's usually done to promote one or more of the following bad ideas/false claims:

1. The argument that talking about the issue of harassment of women means male victims (to the extent they actually exist) are de facto being ignored (they aren't).

2. That idea that the mere act of discussing the issue of harassment of women in gaming means everyone participating believes men are not harassed, ever, in gaming (the logic of which is dead on arrival).

3. The claim that because sexual abuse of all genders is widespread in the world today, therefore men are harassed in gaming just as much as women are (they aren't), so any claim of disproportionate abuse of one gender over another in gaming must be false.

4. To suppress the very important idea that a rising tide lifts all boats--meaning any emphasis on one form of sexual harassment raises awareness of the issue of harassment in gaming in general, and so raises awareness of the issue beyond gaming, so that all forms of harassment are more likely to be recognized and addressed/not tolerated when they happen.

These are all examples of arguments that I believe should not be tolerated in a discussion of harassment of women in gaming.

 

[billd91]

I'm confident in asserting that statutory rape jail time when women rape boys is almost certainly shorter than when men rape girls. (actually, according to a Star-Ledger report, 54% of male suspects go to prison, 44% of women go to prison, and men serve an average 1.5 x longer jail sentences). Men are raped more often than women. But, we can't talk about any of that because it doesn't fit the bulli liberal metanarrative.

Your may note that the Star-Ledger report also analyzed 3x as many male offenders as female and the sentence often was affected by the willingness of the victim to participate and male victims participate at a much lower rate, far more often not seeing themselves as victims of statutory rape. So let's cut the liberal narrative BS. It's just more deflection.

 

[Rottle]

My take on it is that while Woman X might not need you to stand up, women Y, Z and others might feel emboldened knowing that there are others willing to speak up and help, and that the battle for respect is not one that needs to be fought individually. Allies exist.

Which could translate into others standing up for themselves...and for others.

I just don't want to disempower as I try to help. But I see your point and agree. Better to offer help and be turned down then not offer it when needed. Still I really don't want to disempower someone in my effort to support them. And I totally get my view point is skewed by my size and being male, so just because I don't feel disempowered doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. Life is complicated.

 

[MechaPilot]

if you are being harassed what would help you? What should I do as just another person seeing the behavior? Would just standing beside you and voicing my support of you personally help, should I be very public in my support? Should I go to someone in authority and get them involved? Should I comfort the offender personally? What would make you know you are safe, that I will stand beside you, that you are not alone?

Real question I know sometimes I get over protective, I have three sisters and have been told at least a few times I didn't need to step in they could handle it themselves. But their my sisters, they know I have their backs, maybe with a stranger I need to react differently.

Because I know what you meant, I found a small spelling error that you made somewhat amusing: bolded for reference. I am entirely assuming that you meant "confront the offender," as your posting history in this thread would seem to support.


Regarding your question, I think the only good answer is "it depends on how I'm being harassed at the time."

I've described my harassment experience a few times now. If you missed it previously, you can find it here. In my case, I would have desperately loved for something as small as any of the other players smacking the DM on the arm and saying "Dude! Not cool!" Really, anything that made me feel like any member of that group had an ounce of humanity, and wasn't just interested in getting their jollies by watching me squirm at graphic descriptions of being raped, would have been welcome.

If the harassment is of a criminal level, for example if someone groped me or made threats against me, I'd likewise appreciate someone calling the guy out for being a jerk. But, even more than that I'd appreciate a witness to the groping being willing to be a witness, and to tell security and the police what happened (assuming I reported it. I know that I would most likely want to report it, but some women will just want to put it behind them).

Also, if I was being harassed in a non-criminal way I wouldn't have a problem with a man asking if I wanted him to get the attention of someone I could report the harassment to. If I felt I could handle it myself, I could politely decline the offer before cussing out the jerk harassing me. If I felt the harassment was so out of hand I couldn't handle it myself, I'd be grateful for the offer.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

What she's saying is in error and harmful. The fact that you think we should ignore that rather than address the actual problem (which is sexual harassment, not "white male terrorism") in a responsible manner disturbs me.

You have not actually demonstrated that what she has said

She harmfully misidentifies the problem as "white male terrorism." Read the title of her paper. It doesn't say "Tabletop Gaming has a Sexual Harassment Problem." It says, "Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem."
Misidentifying the problem, then arguing that misidentifying the problem doesn't matter, is NOT helpful to ANY sexual victim.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Your may note that the Star-Ledger report also analyzed 3x as many male offenders as female

and..? Your point..?

and the sentence often was affected by the willingness of the victim to participate and male victims participate at a much lower rate, far more often not seeing themselves as victims of statutory rape. So let's cut the liberal narrative BS. It's just more deflection.

When a woman is unwilling to come forth to testify, it is because the judicial system is going to victimize them all over again, (the BS liberal metanarrative says). When men are unwilling to come forth to testify, its their fault they don't get justice (the same metanarrative says)

 

[Darkwing Duck]

In my observation, when people bring up the issue of sexual harassment of males as a response to the topic of this thread, it's usually done to promote one or more of the following bad ideas/false claims:

1. The argument that talking about the issue of harassment of women means male victims (to the extent they actually exist) are de facto being ignored (they aren't).

I have had women tell me the opposite - that talking about male victims means that female victims are being ignored. I've never heard the claim that talking about female victims means that male victims are being ignored. Throughout this entire discussion, I've said that there is room for ALL victims. You and others like you are the ones protesting discussing male victims.

2. That idea that the mere act of discussing the issue of harassment of women in gaming means everyone participating believes men are not harassed, ever, in gaming (the logic of which is dead on arrival).

I never claimed that everyone believes that men are not harassed. I have been told that discussing male victims alongside female victims is wrong unless we can document cases of male victims (even though such documentation of female victims wasn't required by the person who made that claim).

3. The claim that because sexual abuse of all genders is widespread in the world today, therefore men are harassed in gaming just as much as women are (they aren't), so any claim of disproportionate abuse of one gender over another in gaming must be false.

By simple math, since most people are heterosexual and men are the primary consumers of RPGs, there probably is more sexual abuse of women in RPGs. I never claimed otherwise. What I did claim is that this does not give justification to marginalize male victims.

4. To suppress the very important idea that a rising tide lifts all boats--meaning any emphasis on one form of sexual harassment raises awareness of the issue of harassment in gaming in general, and so raises awareness of the issue beyond gaming, so that all forms of harassment are more likely to be recognized and addressed/not tolerated when they happen.

I'm not the one here protesting mentioning victimization of both sexes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

She harmfully misidentifies the problem as "white male terrorism." Read the title of her paper. It doesn't say "Tabletop Gaming has a Sexual Harassment Problem." It says, "Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem."
Misidentifying the problem, then arguing that misidentifying the problem doesn't matter, is NOT helpful to ANY sexual victim.

Sorry, no- addressed that "white male" part of this thing a few pages ago:

In case you missed it, she used the acronym "POC" to describe certain victims of similar mistreatment. That acronym stands for "persons of color"- hence "white" terrorism.

You can also note that 90%+ (could have been all- I don't currently feel the need to go back and check each one) of her personal AND 2nd hand anecdotal exemplars involved heterosexual harassment of women. Hence "male" terrorism.

Given the same personal and anecdotal accounts, coupled with the documented reports of other women in the hobby as participants, reviewers/journalists, and content creators- some recounted as the personal experiences of participants in this very thread- "omnipresent" may be hyperbolic, but not by a hell of a lot. One might even characterize it as a slight exaggeration for emphasis.

Are there women in the hobby victimizing men? Homosexual men or women in the hobby victimizing those of their own gender? It IS possible. But in a niche hobby with an overwhelmingly white male demographic, and a statistical average rate of homosexuality in the USA roughly the same as that of left-handedness, odds favor that most of the bad actors will be straight white males, and most of the victims being women.

See also this post re: "terrorism"

Some of the behavior described in the original article- threats of assault, rape or killing- in order to modify the writer's behavior can actually sustain a conviction for making "terroristc threats", punishable by up to 20 years in prison, depending on jurisdiction and seriousness of the threat.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/violent_crimes/terrorist-threats.htm

So, no, her writing isn't an issue at all. It isn't even really hyperbole.

Adding "white male" and "terrorism" together, we get "white male terrorism" as alleged.

 

[Azzy]

I see no value in approaching the problem in a counter-productive manner (promoted by her writing style).

I find no value in whinging about the author's writing style.

 

[Azzy]

What she's saying is in error and harmful. The fact that you think we should ignore that rather than address the actual problem (which is sexual harassment, not "white male terrorism") in a responsible manner disturbs me.

The fact that you're more concerned about someone who has experienced harassment discussing it in a "responsible manner" than actually discussing what the community can do to deter this sort of reprehensible behavior disturbs and disgusts me.