Hard Solo Encounters: How Difficult is n + 3?

[the8bitdeity]

DMG pg 58 starts listing sample formulas for East / Average / Hard encounters. I want to run a solo encounter for my 6 level 3 pcs (assume just below total optimization, I've got 2 optimizers, 2 semi-optimized, 1 average optimization, and one unknown (new player)). I want to run a dragon encounter, but am debating between a White / Black / Green. I want a challenging encounter, but not a TPK (ok for characters to go nova, maybe at most 1 PC death).

Using the DMG a "hard" encounter would be a Solo 6, but that seems kinda overwhelming.

Thoughts?

 

[Victim]

You could make the encounter using a lower level dragon with allies, instead of just one higher level dragon.

 

[Revinor]

My group of 1st level players (but already end of level 1, so most got 1 magic weapon), managed to survive 5th level green dragon... without fighter, who canceled coming at last moment. 4 1st level players, only 1 heavily optimized, rest reasonable, rogue, ranger, wizard and cleric are able to manage 5th level solo Obviously, having 6 criticals in first 2 rounds of combat from their side helped... (took 2 rounds to get dragon bloodied and another 8 to kill him).

With dragons in particular, main question is amount of cheesy tactics you want to pull off. If you take blue dragon, hover at 21 squares and use lightning burst... you will probably TPK party and nobody will have fun. Play dragon smart, but don't put players in situation where half of people cannot do anything and other half has to use basic attacks. If needed, create an encounter in low ceiling cave - or put chain on dragon leg (long chain, but still). If you take high-attitude fly out of equation, they should manage.

 

[the8bitdeity]

You could make the encounter using a lower level dragon with allies, instead of just one higher level dragon.

Well, that would make it a more manageable encounter, but I'm hoping to use this as my first true "solo" encounter. I have some terrain ideas I want to implement, in addition to trying to skillfully design an encounter map. I want to encourage the players to move throughout the encounter, not just surround + thump.

Basically I'm using a solo because I want that true "Final Fantasy" boss vibe. If I use any other monsters, they'd be minions to annoy at most.

 

[-Avalon-]

I just sent my group of 5's (6 of them) through an encounter with a 4th lvl solo (xp budget 2150 - just above 8th lvl for them) And they barely noticed there was a fight. Depends on what sort of encounter you have.

My lessons so far on solos: Do not have a true solo fight with a solo that leans towards lurker/skirmisher; And do not give PC's a clear shot at the solo for 2 rounds.

To avoid this, use minions as buffers, use 1 or 2 waves of them so that they show up more than just on first round. Have some monsters in hiding to guard the "Boss", have a controller type sitting around to assist in hampering the party.

I prefer Soldier and Brute Solos. add rest, and you have a thoroughly challenging fight from what I have seen.

 

[Agamon]

You could make the encounter using a lower level dragon with allies, instead of just one higher level dragon.

Using the Draconomicon, an adult with a wyrmling would be cool. But I'd go white in that case.

 

[the8bitdeity]

I just sent my group of 5's (6 of them) through an encounter with a 4th lvl solo (xp budget 2150 - just above 8th lvl for them) And they barely noticed there was a fight. Depends on what sort of encounter you have.

My lessons so far on solos: Do not have a true solo fight with a solo that leans towards lurker/skirmisher; And do not give PC's a clear shot at the solo for 2 rounds.

To avoid this, use minions as buffers, use 1 or 2 waves of them so that they show up more than just on first round. Have some monsters in hiding to guard the "Boss", have a controller type sitting around to assist in hampering the party.

I prefer Soldier and Brute Solos. add rest, and you have a thoroughly challenging fight from what I have seen.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on your two lessons?

1) No true solo fight with lurker / skirmisher: Meaning these combat types are not capable of making an enjoyable truly "solo" fight.

2) No clear shot: such as hit and run tactics from the solo?

 

[-Avalon-]

Interesting. Could you elaborate on your two lessons?

1) No true solo fight with lurker / skirmisher: Meaning these combat types are not capable of making an enjoyable truly "solo" fight.

2) No clear shot: such as hit and run tactics from the solo?

First Part:
Well, Lurkers and Skirmishers.. to me, they play like rogues/rangers... how good is a rogue by itself? Ranger? With friends (even minions)?

No, they work best on capitalizing off of openings made by friends. The more resilient or numerous of these friends, the more openings that are made, the more damage your lurker/skirmisher solo can do... If it is by itself, hit n run tactics really don't work so well (unless some special move action ability is given, like an at-will teleport move action)

On the second part:
Try to make it so the solo and one or two people have good lines to each other, but no more, if you let an entire party get on your solo, it is dead. If you let the entire party ignore the solo, it is dead. This is unless you have a solo that you should not have thrown up against the party (a la 6th level flying blue dragons in a desert of no terrain lol vs 4th lvl party)

Instead, allow the solo and one or two players tango for a lil bit, if the going gets rough, make sure there is a get-away button, otherwise, go for it, let your chump mobs take care of the other players for a little while. Usually, you can drop the level of your solo by one (choose a different color dragon, unless you are absolutely in love with one type, like me lol) and gain enough XP budget to buy some friends to use.

In Any case, I try to avoid TPK's unless the group is completely dumb. If they have done things right, and all is going like it should, I will throw a Deus Ex Machina in there to save one or two party members to keep it from being completely horrific...

 

[babinro]

My experience with solo encounters have been mixed. The players enjoy it, which is really all that is important. But thus far they haven't been challenged by a solo. I blame this almost exclusively on the wizard. Why?

They can simply make a single creature useless. Spells like Sleep, entangle, and other skills that grant immobilize conditions have severely hampered my solo encounters to favor the party considerably. The tank will tank, receive healing or defensive boosts...the wizard will see to it the boss gets nowhere, and in about 4 rounds the solo will be dead, or very near it.

Granted, as a DM if I 'fudged' rolls in favor of solo's to make all the saves it could have made for a more challenging encounter, but since multiple characters have dailies to control a solo, so long as the party goes in prepared...I haven't seen a solo give much of a challenge yet.

I have a party consisting of four PC's and they have faced 2 dragons during the heroic tier thus far, both proved to be quite non-threatening.

 

[Rafe]

I haven't seen a solo give much of a challenge yet.

I have a party consisting of four PC's and they have faced 2 dragons during the heroic tier thus far, both proved to be quite non-threatening.

Are they fighting Brute solos? Usually controller or artillery solos make things more interesting, especially with a few minions thrown in.