D&D 5E Running Tier 3 D&D 5e

[ezo]

wrong.
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EDIT: also "improved divine smite" is a bit of a misnomer, because it's not actually part of smite. it just gives you a flat 1d8 bonus radiant damage to any melee weapon attack you make.

Good enough. I've never had a paladin get to that level, so nice catch!

EDIT: Actually, you can have 5th-level smites... but they still only deal 5d8 damage, not 6d8.

The real baller move is to just let move on and let the other person have the last word.

Which is what I did in my last post. If they want to reply to it, let them. I'm done with that conversation.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So many threads about how paladins break the game. When you combine them with sorcerers, the extra spell slots and utility make them able to output more and adapt to many situations. If they(game developers) had limited the spell slots useable to the max level granted to the Paladin class, it wouldn’t be nearly as bad.

Paladin 3 can only use 1st level spells. So even with a Paladin 3, sorcerer 9, despite getting lots of extra slots from sorcerer, they would only be able to fuel their smites with 1st level spells. That limits power of smites to Paladin level and reduces the sheer amount of smites.

Really, most people go 5th or 6th Paladin, which is a max of 2nd level spells. 2d6 is Not so bad when the party is 11th. That would give incentive to take more levels in Paladin, just to access those higher level smites.

 

[Distracted DM]

So many threads about how paladins break the game. When you combine them with sorcerers, the extra spell slots and utility make them able to output more and adapt to many situations. If they(game developers) had limited the spell slots useable to the max level granted to the Paladin class, it wouldn’t be nearly as bad.

Paladin 3 can only use 1st level spells. So even with a Paladin 3, sorcerer 9, despite getting lots of extra slots from sorcerer, they would only be able to fuel their smites with 1st level spells. That limits power of smites to Paladin level and reduces the sheer amount of smites.

Really, most people go 5th or 6th Paladin, which is a max of 2nd level spells. 2d6 is Not so bad when the party is 11th. That would give incentive to take more levels in Paladin, just to access those higher level smites.

AFAIK the 5e designers really meant it when they said "multiclassing is optional" because they pretty much washed their hands of it as far as balancing went. I think it was on Dragon Talks and maybe other places, but they really didn't try to balance multiclassing.

I think that we see that it's a bit different now, though- in the playtests for 5e revised they've iirc moved all class subclasses to 3rd level, I think to make class-dipping a little less appealing.

 

[ezo]

Yesterday I made the decision I am removing the multiclassing option from our current game. The PCs just reached 3rd level and with the feats in Tasha's, it just isn't necessary. You don't need to dip for invocations or metamagic, nor a fighting style, etc. anymore.

 

[Distracted DM]

We have just reached level 10 in our campaign ( playing through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, so Greek themed )

I am struggling to make combat feel challenging, PCs do walk through most encounters, I have tried some environmental items, but now they have a lot of abilities they negate most of them. As you can see PC1 is a super nova class ( average of 70 points of damage per round with Smites )

the PCs are

• PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
• PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
• PC3 - Ranger 10
• PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8

Don't want to nerf characters so I am wondering how best to run Tier 3 encounters so that they pose some threat. Thanks in advance

Btw it's not just you- going to tier 3 and beyond in 5e is not easy for any GM that likes to challenge their players. The characters power grows exponentially and somewhat unpredictably, especially if you include a lot of splatbooks- but even so without them.

 

[FrogReaver]

You are not the only one reading this thread.

Smite is just not that powerful. It just isn't

Spells are just a more powerful use of slots.



You said you don't know anyone who considered the spell weak. So yes, what someone else is on record saying is very relevant to your statement.

Further you said it is stronger than any Paladin spell. Most would consider SWS weaker than some of the Paladin's own 5th level spells; including Destructive Wave, Banishing Smite and Summon Celestial. Yet in terms of damage SWS is still about 3-4 times more powerful than using that same slot for a Divine Smite.

There’s a repeated flaw in your arguments. You keep comparing slot only without taking into account whether anything else can be done on the turn the slot is used.

A level 11 PAM Paladin using spear and shield and dueling styles does…

2d6+1d4+3d8+21 = 44 damage which accuracy adjusted is still right at as much as a high level smite. Add in a decent magic weapon and it surpasses smite.

For single target damage it’s really hard to beat attacking with divine smite.

Your comparisons of steel wind strike or inflict wounds are just missing to much context.

As an anecdote, my playthroughs of solasta have tended to be much easier when I focused on damage instead of other things. Spike growth or moonbeam instead of entangle. Guiding bolt instead of healing word or bless. Fireball instead of sleet storm. Etc.

Occasionally a hold person was really handy.

 

[ECMO3]

All of your examples use multi-classing.

So does the example I replied to. Someone brought up a Paladin 9/Echo Knight 3 and I went over several other multiclasses that can do comparable or more in melee.

They are all also built with character optimization in mind. Having to use those two things to compare a single class, non-optimized paladin should give you perspective on smite. I don't know about your table, but half of our selected feats and classes just came from our character's roleplaying development, and it had little to do with combat effectiveness.

It is not a comparison to a single class. It is a comparison to a multiclass Paladin 9/Echo Knight 3 that allegedly would do "300+" damage in a single turn (but more like 90). If you go with a single class Paladin the damage they do is much, much lower and the single class counter examples would also be much, much lower.

The poster I replied to said "Every nova build in the game takes at least 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, so pretending like multiclassing somehow doesn't count is pretty silly."

Take your pick are we talking about single class builds or multiclass builds? It is one or the other but it is intellectually dishonest to talk about what a Paladin can do in an optimized multiclass build and then throw out other multiclass combinations used as a counterpoint.

 

[ECMO3]

wrong - that would be 7 attacks (2 from extra attack, 2 from action surge, 1 from haste, 2 from unleash incarnation since you take 2 attack actions).

No. Casting Haste takes one action.

Action: cast Haste (0 attacks)
Action Surge: Attack action - extra attack (2 attacks), Unleash Incarnation (1 attack)
Haste: Attack action (1 attack)

That is 4 attacks total. It would be 5 (not 7) but the Haste spell has a disclaimer in it that when you take the attack action as your extra action you get "one weapon attack only"

If you have a bonus action attack it would also be 5, but then you are doing less damage with all your attacks because you are using a weaker weapon. With PAM on the other 4 attacks you are giving up 10 damage (with a pole arm) because your base damage is lower and your strength is lower (and have a lower chance to hit). If you used 2 weapon fighting you would be giving up 16 damage on your other 4 attacks.

for however many more turns as you have unleash incarnation it'd be 4 attacks, and then it'd be 3 until haste ends. that goes up to 8, 5, and 4 attacks respectively with PAM, but that attack does different damage.

And that is irrelevant because you have no divine smite slots left after halfway through the 2nd turn (assuming all of them hit)

assuming those all hit and you have a halberd or glaive and 20 strength, you're looking at 81 damage from just the halberd and PAM, and 94 damage from smite, for a total of 175 damage.

But with average rolls or point buy you would not have a 20 strength and PAM with only 2 ASIs.

Average damage if you actually did get 7 attacks against an AC17 foe with 18 strength and PAM using your best available slot is 94.2 DPR. That includes crits.

That is with 7 attacks. With the 5 attacks you actually get when casting Haste and with PAM it would be 75.2 damage on average.

If you don't like those numbers, give me the ones you want to use, but regardless of what is used it will be nowhere near 175 damage in a single turn at 12th level.

crits could absolutely get you to 300+, though you'd need to get pretty lucky.

Even with 7 attacks the chance for 300 or more damage is less than 1 in 10 million. It is actually too small for the numerical method used by the program I use to calculate averages and percentages.

5th level smites aren't a thing. the damage caps out at 4th level.

That is not how I read the description of Divine Smite:

"The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8."

The way I read that is a maximum of 5d8 extra (above the initial 2d8) or in other words it caps out at a 6th level slot. Regardless if a 5th level slot only 5d8 instead of 6d8 then that means it even fares less well as compared to a spell.

 

[ECMO3]

There’s a repeated flaw in your arguments. You keep comparing slot only without taking into account whether anything else can be done on the turn the slot is used.

That goes in the action economy discussion made earlier.

It is a valid point, in terms of action economy and single target damage it is difficult to beat Divine Smite for one turn in the day.

That does not mean the class is broken though and I think the group overall will generally fair worse over the course of the day if the Paladin waits around to use his all his spell slots for Divine Smite on the big boss (or worse crit fishes). I think what that will cause is the party to burn more resources.

I think the Paladin using Dispel Magic for example on a Rogue under the effect of Hold Person in an earlier encounter will save more party resources than the 18 damage he is going to get by holding that slot on the big bad. I think using Wrathful Smite will save far more resources than the 5.5 damage he gives up vs using that slot for Divine Smite.

We have 1000 threads on this forum about how Wizards are overpowered and they are among the worst classes when it comes to dealing damage. The reason they are powerful is because they have spells that can tackle many different situations both in and out of combat. The Paladin has that ability as well (not to the same degree), but if he uses his slots for smites he is trading that away.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

No. Casting Haste takes one action.

Action: cast Haste (0 attacks)
Action Surge: Attack action - extra attack (2 attacks), Unleash Incarnation (1 attack)
Haste: Attack action (1 attack)

That is 4 attacks total. It would be 5 (not 7) but the Haste spell has a disclaimer in it that when you take the attack action as your extra action you get "one weapon attack only"

...why would you caste haste on the action surge turn...? i mean. i guess you CAN, but it's weird, especially if we're trying to reverse engineer these numbers (plus, from his phrasing, it sounds like he doesn't do that, so assuming he does is even stranger).

also, yes, i know how haste works. you don't need to tell me.

If you have a bonus action attack it would also be 5, but then you are doing less damage with all your attacks because you are using a weaker weapon. With PAM on the other 4 attacks you are giving up 10 damage (with a pole arm) because your base damage is lower and your strength is lower (and have a lower chance to hit). If you used 2 weapon fighting you would be giving up 16 damage on your other 4 attacks.

the guy we're talking about said he was using PAM. i don't really care if it's worse - it's the parameters.

And that is irrelevant because you have no divine smite slots left after halfway through the 2nd turn (assuming all of them hit)

i don't really care about the second turn. we're talking about the nova turn. i just brought up how many attacks the next turns would have for clarity.

But with average rolls or point buy you would not have a 20 strength and PAM with only 2 ASIs.

okay, so what, 74 damage instead?

Average damage if you actually did get 7 attacks against an AC17 foe with 18 strength and PAM using your best available slot is 79.8 DPR. That includes crits.

none of my calculations took crits into account. mainly just because i didn't want to bother, since i didn't think it'd change much. this tells me i was right about that.

If you don't like those numbers, give me the ones you want to use, but regardless of what is used it will be nowhere near 175 damage in a single turn at 12th level.

yeah, it'd just be 168 assuming no crits. nowhere near 175.

Even with 7 attacks the chance for 300 or more damage is less than 1 in 10 million. It is actually too small for the numerical method used by the program I use to calculate averages and percentages.

k.

That is not how I read the description of Divine Smite:

"The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8."

The way I read that is a maximum of 5d8 extra (above the initial 2d8) or in other words it caps out at a 6th level slot.

why the hell would it be that? paladins don't even get 6th level slots. it'd only ever come up with multiclassing, and WOTC didn't take that into account when originally balancing the 2014 classes.

Regardless if a 5th level slot only 5d8 instead of 6d8 then that means it even fares less well as compared to a spell.

yeah, but my point was you wouldn't want to smite with a 5th level spell slot ANYWAY. the comparison is pointless.