D&D 5E Running Tier 3 D&D 5e

GreyBeardDM

Explorer
We have just reached level 10 in our campaign ( playing through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, so Greek themed )

I am struggling to make combat feel challenging, PCs do walk through most encounters, I have tried some environmental items, but now they have a lot of abilities they negate most of them. As you can see PC1 is a super nova class ( average of 70 points of damage per round with Smites )

the PCs are
  • PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
  • PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
  • PC3 - Ranger 10
  • PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8

Don't want to nerf characters so I am wondering how best to run Tier 3 encounters so that they pose some threat. Thanks in advance
 

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We have just reached level 10 in our campaign ( playing through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, so Greek themed )

I am struggling to make combat feel challenging, PCs do walk through most encounters, I have tried some environmental items, but now they have a lot of abilities they negate most of them. As you can see PC1 is a super nova class ( average of 70 points of damage per round with Smites )

the PCs are
  • PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
  • PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
  • PC3 - Ranger 10
  • PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8

Don't want to nerf characters so I am wondering how best to run Tier 3 encounters so that they pose some threat. Thanks in advance
I played through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, and we had a blast. There are a few observations that I have but having not read the adventure myself, I can only speak to what we encountered.

1) Make the countdown element matter. The party has a limited amount of time to complete their quest, and they are dealing with godlike enemies.

2) Our DM said he had to adjust monster HP totals and abilities up for our party of four and we did not have a sorcadin or other multi class combo in our group. That tells me the adventure is underspec’d by a lot.

3) The Underworld portion has a lot of opportunities to challenge players as we found out once we started investigating the strange cubes (no spoilers).

4) If a PC breaks an oath, let them pay the price. Put them in positions where their oaths are tested.
 

You do not need every encounter to be challenging, that way lies tpk's.
Reinforce a medium encounter with another one starting on round 2, throw in another one if necessary.
Feel free to use deadly encounters and to make them more deadly.
Interesting lair actions (aka terrain effects), have a look at MCDM's Flee! Mortals.
 

So, the easy tweaks are:
  • stop playing to the PCs strengths - if the pally can reliably get smite on all of his opponents, give him some that won't qualify
  • more (durable) opponents - every one should be able to last one round at a minimum. 3 is better. Yes, that means 200+ HP monsters will be the norm. (Oh, and don't increase the CR, just give the monsters their HP shield.) Actually, it doesn't have to be actual HP, that's just the most direct.
  • better saves - even better a mix of opponents with a mix of good saves.

Oh, and "combat" encounters that require a different approach than just a straight-up slug-fest.
 

As players get more tactics, GMs need to do the same. There are things you should never do at lower tiers because it's a guaranteed TPK. But these are heroes that can survive those threats.


In general:
Action economy - More is better. be willing to use numbers of enemies. It requires some practice as a GM but it's quite do-able.

Think a cr9 dragon with 2x cr5 dragonborn and like 8x cr1 kobolds. The kobolds flank fighters or use ranged attacks on casters or just try to grapple.


Action Economy -bigger is better. If you make a big boss, make a really big boss. Go straight to a cr13ish dragon. It's beefy, has AoEs, legendary resistance, and can outrun most players.

Resource Management - repeat offenders. Some enemies should be smart enough to flee. Doing so consumes (wastes) PC resources when the players power up and then the enemies flee until those PCs' powers fade.
 

My advice would be AOEs with something other than a Dex save so that the Rogue doesn't get off Scott free on a success. The enemy doesn't need to have a lot of them but anything that gets the PCs below half health is going to make them feel the pressure.
 

If the nova thing is really a problem, the thought others have floated that you can frame in more combats seems workable. Setting up things where combat isn't the solution--not because a given entity is unkillable, but because killing them isn't gong to get what the PCs want--is another great idea. Looking back and skimming the session notes, I'm not really sure when the PCs get into Tier 3, let alone Tier 4 (though two campaigns have run to Tier 4); I don't have any specifics immediately to hand for what I did. The overall suggestion I'm inclined to make is to look at the party's combat SOP and set up situations where that isn't the right answer. I don't remember noticing such a shift at 10th level, but I've been running 5- and 6-PC parties, so they've always tended to punch somewhat above their weight.
 

We have just reached level 10 in our campaign ( playing through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, so Greek themed )

I am struggling to make combat feel challenging, PCs do walk through most encounters, I have tried some environmental items, but now they have a lot of abilities they negate most of them. As you can see PC1 is a super nova class ( average of 70 points of damage per round with Smites )

the PCs are
  • PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
  • PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
  • PC3 - Ranger 10
  • PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8

Don't want to nerf characters so I am wondering how best to run Tier 3 encounters so that they pose some threat. Thanks in advance
How is PC1 doing an average of 70 points of dmg per round, even with Smites? It really should be around 40-45. I can see it once in a while, especially with a crit maybe, but those are outliers, not "average".

Anyway, tier 3 encounters rely on environment, numbers, and mixture of foes to keep PCs challenged IME. Combining creatures with huge hp and ones with special features is part of it.

Using the environment to keep the PCs from wolf-packing and present danger, such as pulling a PC underwater.

Example using water/ underwater:
  • Many weapons have disadvantage when used underwater.
  • Young green dragon (CR 7) is amphibious and breaths poison damage, even a wyrmling (CR 2) can pile up some poison damage, especially used in numbers (a recently hatched brood)
  • Ogre zombie (CR 2) is immune to poison and doesn't need to breathe so can be underwater
  • Lizardman Shaman can hold its breath, but also cast entangle on "seaweed/grasses" underwater, has fog cloud, and heat metal
  • Green Hag and a couple Sea Hag coven, all amphibious, powerful casters (as a coven, feel free to change the spells, but multiple counterspells can create havoc). All have illusionary appearance so one or more can appear as "bait".
  • Obviously a water elemental (CR 5) in such an environment is great
NOTE: casters dragged underwater have limited options. Spells like misty step, which is V only, can't be cast, for example.

But, don't make the whole adventure about being around water. If you do, the players will definitely prepare for it. So, you just have it be part of that encounter.

Now, when it comes to figuring out the XP balance for a deadly encounter. 4 PCs could face a 11,200 XP budget, at 6 foes that would reduce it to 5,600 XP. This outnumbers the PCs 4-6.

One example would be the coven. As part of a coven, the green hag (CR 5) and sea hags (CR 4 each) would comprise 4,000 xp. Toss in a water wierd (CR 3, serving the sea hags) and two wyrmling green dragons (CR 2, pets of the green hag) would add another 1,600 xp.

Water weird grapples a PC, dragging it underwater. The coven uses spells and abilities, while the two dragons gang up on another PC. None of the PCs likely have CON saves, so the poison damage can be big enough. All the creatures have enough HP to withstand decent damage by the PCs.

If the players are saavy and/or lucky, this might only be a hard encounter, but if it goes against them it could very well be deadly, though not likely a TPK. Remove one of the wyrmlings and thrown in the lizardman shaman for more spellcasting uses the spells suggested above to harass the paladin, for example. The water weird auto-grapples when it hits, pulls a PC underwater, the shaman then casts entangle to further hold the PC underwater possibly.

Finally, all of those creatures except the shaman has darkvision, in case your PCs all don't. :)

For story, perhaps the coven moved in and killed the green dragon, keeping and hatching the eggs? The PCs go there expecting a green dragon, encounter a couple prisoners (1-2 hags) to help them, and then the battle begins with the water weird dragging a PC off of a natural stone bridge into the water below. The water is a stream, so the weird takes the PC downstream with the current, isolating it from the others. The coven uses counterspells to stop PC magic, and their own spells offensively. The wyrmlings both breath on a PC or two, scenario permitting, etc. Should be a fun fight for the players IME.

Anyway, that is just one example. I've run a game to level 20, and many more into tier 3, and 5E allows you to challenge PCs, even using the encounter building guidelines in the DMG.

Hope that helps? Not knowing magic items your group has, or spells they commonly rely on, I can't say for certain.
 



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