D&D 5E Running Tier 3 D&D 5e

Thanks everyone some really good ideas in there.

I guess my combats have been semi open and when one pc has flying boots and another has the levitate spell. Makes Ariel combat interesting.

As for the sorceradin yes sorry 50 is more his average. Looking back he crit twice in 2 rounds
 

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Paladin crits are no joke. One boss fight saw the Hasted Paladin make 3 attacks and crit twice. Dumped smites since it was his arch enemy. The total damage ended up being 132 that round IIRC.
 

As for the sorceradin yes sorry 50 is more his average. Looking back he crit twice in 2 rounds
Paladin crits are no joke. One boss fight saw the Hasted Paladin make 3 attacks and crit twice. Dumped smites since it was his arch enemy. The total damage ended up being 132 that round IIRC.
Paladin smites are one of the game breaking features IME.

Paladins should have to "declare" smite empowerment prior to making an attack, perhaps as a bonus action, which lasts until the start of their next turn. This way, if the paladin misses, their attack is still empowered for Extra Attack, or barring even that perhaps an opportunity attack.

It would also limit it to once per round since it would be a bonus action.
 

We have just reached level 10 in our campaign ( playing through Odyssey of the Dragonlords, so Greek themed )

I am struggling to make combat feel challenging, PCs do walk through most encounters, I have tried some environmental items, but now they have a lot of abilities they negate most of them. As you can see PC1 is a super nova class ( average of 70 points of damage per round with Smites )

the PCs are
  • PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
  • PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
  • PC3 - Ranger 10
  • PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8

Don't want to nerf characters so I am wondering how best to run Tier 3 encounters so that they pose some threat. Thanks in advance

Breath Drinker or Solar Dragon would be a start. Eliminate the smiting Paladin.

Feeblemind the Paladin and turn him against allies. This would severely nerf the party for a long time as none of them can cast Heal or Greater Restoration. So the Paladin would be nearly non-functional for a month.

Have them stumble on to someone in a magic jar, then go after the Ranger or Wizard. Drop him to low hit points and then go back into the jar and after the other one.
 

I've run up to 12th/13th level in 5e. In my experience, there are 3 sorts of interventions I use for making fights more challenging, mapping to:
1. Interventions based on specifics of the Encounter
2. Interventions based on builds/tactics of the Party
3. Interventions based on general concerns with the Rules/System

I'll hit quickly on each of these, how often I think they should be used, how you can learn to use them, and an example.

Encounter specific interventions
These are tricks, complications, goals, or anything else that is bespoke to that encounter. It emerges by thinking through the scene.
• How often? I use these as often as possible, keeping an eye on pacing and on my own effort/burnout level.
• How to learn? Best way I've seen is talking about your encounter with other skillful GMs, either forensically dissecting one that didn't go well, or helping you think through an upcoming encounter.
Example from my games: A collapsing river cliff is unleashing waves of skeletons (monsters) that were trapped/fossilized inside, threatening to push PCs into the river.

Party adapted interventions
These are strategies to thwart specific powerful or problematic PC capabilities, and encourage players breaking out of habitual solutions.
How often? I use these intermittently, sometimes more often, sometimes sparingly to not at all, sort of like salt.
How to learn? Really combing over the character sheets, making mental notes of the PCs' capabilities during play, and then trial-and-error.
Example from my games: Sharpshooter ranger dominating encounters being faced with a court audience where they're thrust suddenly into close quarters fighting.

General interventions based on rules concerns
These are things like "my combats are taking too long, so I halve all monster hit points" or "my sorcerer twinning this particular spell is wrecking my fights so I'm nerfing the spell."
• How often? Personally, I use these as little as possible and only when it's strictly necessary or clearly the best way to achieve a goal.
How to learn? These require more of a game designer hat – good rules knowledge and thinking through potential domino effects.
Example from my games: For a certain style of play, this was effective: Increased dragon HP, but allocating hp by body part, with consequences for reducing a limb to 0 allowing for called shots and more creative flow.

  • PC1 - Paladin 6, Sorcerer 4
  • PC2 - Rogue 2, Wizard 8
  • PC3 - Ranger 10
  • PC4 - Sorcerer 2, Fighter 8
Looking over your party (alpha striker, mage, ranged, melee), I have some hunches...
  • First glaring weakness is very little healing. Do damage fast and hard to them, and force paladin to spend action using Lay Hands or ranger using Cure Wounds.
  • Second weakness (I think) is not a ton of high-mobility. Include greater distances (with verticality) that require PCs to close the gap, and force squishy wizard to consider Cunning Action: Dash to get there or sorc/fighter to consider Action Surge to bridge distance.
  • Alpha striking specifically has a big weakness – imperfect information (unclear targets, wrong targets, decoy targets, inability to perceive clearly). Mirror image is a rules-as-written example of this strategy.
  • PCs often tend to turtle around a paladin for save bonus, so strategies to break that up are great – 2-3 goals that require different PCs engaging with stuff on different areas of map, ongoing damage zones, mages with fireballs, weaponizing one PC, etc.
  • Ranged monsters – either along with terrain hazards, distance, or even better other monster roles – will help to keep the threat on.
  • Party is balanced, but anything that separates them or removes one of them from the combat – even for a round or two – will have an unbalancing impact that requires players to adapt.
 

Paladin smites are one of the game breaking features IME.

Paladins should have to "declare" smite empowerment prior to making an attack, perhaps as a bonus action, which lasts until the start of their next turn. This way, if the paladin misses, their attack is still empowered for Extra Attack, or barring even that perhaps an opportunity attack.

It would also limit it to once per round since it would be a bonus action.

I don't think Paladin Smites are very powerful at all. A spell cast with a spell slot is generally going to be more powerful than a smite used with a slot of the same level.

For example a 5th level smite is 6d8 or 27 damage to one creature. Steel Wind Strike is a 5th level spell that does 33 damage to up to 5 different creatures and lets you teleport. If you hit just 1 of those 5 you do more damage than the smite and if you hit 2 of those 5 you have done more damage than if that slot was used for a smite that crit .... and Steel Wind Strike itself can crit. Steel Wind Strike is generally considered a weak spell.

It is a valuable option to have and can substantially boost damage from a weapon attack and you can smite more than once a round if you hit more than once a round, but it still is a weak use of what are limited slots. The most powerful Paladins I have seen in play use smite judiciously and heavily rely on Channel Divinity and spells.
 
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I don't think Paladin Smites are very powerful at all. A spell cast with a spell slot is generally going to be more powerful than a smite used with a slot of the same level.

For example a 5th level smite is 6d8 or 27 damage to one creature. Steel Wind Strike is a 5th level spell that does 33 damage to up to 5 different creatures and lets you teleport. If you hit just 1 of those 5 you do more damage than the smite and if you hit 2 of those 5 you have done more damage than if that slot was used for a smite that crit .... and Steel Wind Strike itself can crit. Steel Wind Strike is generally considered a weak spell.

It is a valuable option to have and can substantially boost damage from a weapon attack and you can smite more than once a round if you hit more than once a round, but it still is a weak use of what are limited slots. The most powerful Paladins I have seen in play use smite judiciously and heavily rely on Channel Divinity and spells.
Paladin's don't have steel wind strike, for one thing. Smite is more powerful as written than pretty much any paladin spell.

I don't know anyone who considers SWS a "weak spell" except, now, for you.

I'm not going to get into a long-winded debate about this, but of course you can disagree all you want. You'll never convince me that you're right, and I know I won't sway you, so there's no point.
 

I don't think Paladin Smites are very powerful at all. A spell cast with a spell slot is generally going to be more powerful than a smite used with a slot of the same level.

For example a 5th level smite is 6d8 or 27 damage to one creature. Steel Wind Strike is a 5th level spell that does 33 damage to up to 5 different creatures and lets you teleport. If you hit just 1 of those 5 you do more damage than the smite and if you hit 2 of those 5 you have done more damage than if that slot was used for a smite that crit .... and Steel Wind Strike itself can crit. Steel Wind Strike is generally considered a weak spell.

It is a valuable option to have and can substantially boost damage from a weapon attack and you can smite more than once a round if you hit more than once a round, but it still is a weak use of what are limited slots. The most powerful Paladins I have seen in play use smite judiciously and heavily rely on Channel Divinity and spells.
Wow, not my experience at all. Paladins going nova with the smites and getting the crit was pretty much insta-death for virtually anything the DM put out on the table for one campaign. And that’s the first I’ve heard someone say Steel Wind Strike was weak. Playing a Horizon Walker Ranger who had this spell, it practically turned him into a teleporting buzzsaw. The spell was clearly designed for gishes.
 

Paladin smites are one of the game breaking features IME.

Paladins should have to "declare" smite empowerment prior to making an attack, perhaps as a bonus action, which lasts until the start of their next turn. This way, if the paladin misses, their attack is still empowered for Extra Attack, or barring even that perhaps an opportunity attack.

It would also limit it to once per round since it would be a bonus action.
I preferred PF1 paladins:

Point at a guy. Say you're gonna take 'em down. Now your attacks get a bonus to hit and damage until that person goes down. (And you bypass any damage resistances they have.)

The thing is, 5e lets you go from a sword dealing d8+4 to like 5d8+4. That's a pretty huge jump.

I dunno. Numbers are difficult to make fun. Maybe smites should all just be conditions, not mere damage boosts. But that's a different thread.
 

I don't think Paladin Smites are very powerful at all. A spell cast with a spell slot is generally going to be more powerful than a smite used with a slot of the same level.

For example a 5th level smite is 6d8 or 27 damage to one creature. Steel Wind Strike is a 5th level spell that does 33 damage to up to 5 different creatures and lets you teleport. If you hit just 1 of those 5 you do more damage than the smite and if you hit 2 of those 5 you have done more damage than if that slot was used for a smite that crit .... and Steel Wind Strike itself can crit. Steel Wind Strike is generally considered a weak spell.

It is a valuable option to have and can substantially boost damage from a weapon attack and you can smite more than once a round if you hit more than once a round, but it still is a weak use of what are limited slots. The most powerful Paladins I have seen in play use smite judiciously and heavily rely on Channel Divinity and spells.
In terms of action economy smite much stronger than you suggest because 1) that slot gets to be used at the same time as you can attack and 2) all those attacks and smite damage can be focused on a single enemy.

That said, Paladins just don't get many great spells for combat casting. Sometimes your subclass will come with a useful one or 2 though.
 

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