D&D 5E Running Tier 3 D&D 5e

I don't know how you can divine smite 6 times in one turn, but I will take your word for it.
Taking an extreme case: Extra attack (2) + PAM (1) + Action Surge (2) + Haste (2) + Unleash Incarnation (2) + AOO (1). Pick and choose which are reasonable to assume, but 6+ is fairly easy to reach with Action Surge
 

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It was an example of a 5th level spell and Treantmonk branded it Purple which is "modest".

If you are talking about Paladin spells, the following spells are all generally more powerful (some are way more powerful) than using a smite with the same slot:

Banishing Smite
Destructive Wave
Holy Weapon
Summon Celestial
Circle of Power
Find Greater Steed
Death Ward
Aura of vitality
Dispel Magic
Revify
Lessor Restoration
Bless
Protection from Evil and Good
Wrathful Smite

Also there are a ton of good Paladin subclass spells.

In 5E spells are just more powerful than attacking.
As I said before:
I'm not going to get into a long-winded debate about this, but of course you can disagree all you want. You'll never convince me that you're right, and I know I won't sway you, so there's no point.
;)

EDIT:
It was an example of a 5th level spell and Treantmonk branded it Purple which is "modest".
LOL like what someone else "branded it" makes any difference???
 
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Taking an extreme case: Extra attack (2) + PAM (1) + Action Surge (2) + Haste (2) + Unleash Incarnation (2) + AOO (1). Pick and choose which are reasonable to assume, but 6+ is fairly easy to reach with Action Surge

Yeah those things not doable by a Paladin. I mean it could happen with a multiclass, but then the Wish spell could or the spell I noted earlier (Steel Wind Strike) could happen with a multiclass too.

A Paladin using Smite is just not going to be game breaking, not even if you managed to cobble all this together yourself .... and if you didn't cobble all this together yourself and if you are including the Wizard casting Haste to give you another attack and the Bard casting Dissonant Whispers to give you an AOO on your turn .... then it isn't really the paladin doing all of this yourself is it?
 
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As I said before:

You are not the only one reading this thread.

Smite is just not that powerful. It just isn't :)

Spells are just a more powerful use of slots.

LOL like what someone else "branded it" makes any difference???

You said you don't know anyone who considered the spell weak. So yes, what someone else is on record saying is very relevant to your statement.

Further you said it is stronger than any Paladin spell. Most would consider SWS weaker than some of the Paladin's own 5th level spells; including Destructive Wave, Banishing Smite and Summon Celestial. Yet in terms of damage SWS is still about 3-4 times more powerful than using that same slot for a Divine Smite.
 
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Yeah those things not doable by a Paladin. I mean it could happen with a multiclass, but then the Wish spell could or the spell I noted earlier (Steel Wind Strike) could happen with a multiclass too.

A Paladin using Smite is just not going to be game breaking, not even if you managed to cobble all this together yourself .... and if you didn't cobble all this together yourself and if you are including the Wizard casting Haste to give you another attack and the Bard casting Dissonant Whispers to give you an AOO on your turn .... then it isn't really the paladin doing all of this yourself is it?
It requires level 12 to do everything I listed, 9 levels in Vengeance Paladin and 3 in Echo Knight Fighter. Like I said, pick and choose which are reasonable to assume, but I play that build in a campaign and regularly pull off that many attacks for 300+ damage on turn 2 (or even turn 1 if imminent combat is obvious and pre-casting Haste is viable). Every nova build in the game takes at least 2 fighter levels for Action Surge, so pretending like multiclassing somehow "doesn't count" is pretty silly.

The Paladin/Sorcerer mentioned by the OP here won't be doing that much damage, but the ways for the DM to handle it is similar to what I mentioned previously. Waves of enemies, or if you really want to protect a BBEG, use Absorbing Tattoos set to Radiant damage.
 

Further you said it is stronger than any Paladin spell. Most would consider SWS weaker than some of the Paladin's own 5th level spells; including Destructive Wave, Banishing Smite and Summon Celestial. Yet in terms of damage SWS is still about 3-4 times more powerful than using that same slot for a Divine Smite.
All of those spells are 5th level, no Paladin gets them until 17th. For most of a Paladin's levels, smite is going to be your bread and butter, especially if you can score a critical hit and/or are fighting fiends and undead.
 

Smite is just not that powerful. It just isn't :)
If I may cut in here, I believe people are saying it is extremely powerful in the right circumstances. And (here is the important part) for many tables at higher levels, those circumstances tend to happen more and more often. This could happen from fewer combats during the adventuring day or from class/magic item/other PC spell combos.

An example of this would be: My group was recently similar to the above group. Me, a fighter/barbarian, and our paladin/warlock often were the front line. (I say often but I mean always. ;) ) For our table, at 12th level, it isn't really that feasible to do three or four combats due to time constraints. So we often had RP and exploration, maybe a small combat, then a large combat. That large combat would often result in our paladin doing an enormous amount of damage with her hit, divine smite, and mace of disruption. She did a lot of damage, much more than my fighter, our ranger, our bard, or our other caster.

Note: This was not a bad thing. I could, while raging and holding down a 20 AC with the tough feat and totem of the bear, technically need about 320 HP of damage to drop me. And even then, my half-orc toughness makes me pop up. The paladin did not have this. By this I mean, by that level PCs are often focused niches, and they should be embraced. The paladin's niche at the that level is damage.
 

The problem with peppering an encounter with tonnes of extra, low level mobs is they're ineffectual. They can't hit the paladin's Ac, even with advantage. So you have to give them something that will make them annoying or cause a headache.

a bunch of kobolds shooting arrows is kind of useless. But, if they're blocking the narrow corridor to the mage that's fireballing, then it forces the PCs to engage them before they engage the mage. Having a powerful ranged character able to come to the edge of a cliff, fire off a deadly AoE and then retreat back forces PCs to ready actions which reduces melee or ranged character's powerful multi-attacks. Being able to engage that enemy forces them to cast a spell like fly (wasting a round) and then fly up where they then have to engage whatever creatures or obstacle is protecting the more powerful enemy.

That said, I don't have a lot of experience running high level games, but I've played in quite a few.

Also, a spell like Death Ward prevents an auto-kill. Maybe a few enemies have a 1-use item that protect them. While it's slightly cheese, being able to retrieve one of these is a great boon for a party (if they can figure out how to get it without using up the charge)

Enemies that evolve is useful and annoying too. Even if the Paladin kills it, it becomes something else.

Spreading out the party with various obstacles and spells and enemies works well. So, maybe, while one party member is flying up that cliff to deal with the ranged boss, the others are still on the ground having to deal with something that's deadly and grappling weaker characters.

Oh, and terrain that slows characters without saves. Unnaturally magical thick fog, or just plain mud, thick trees. So annoying. Even more so if the enemies are druids and can pass without problems.
 

You are not the only one reading this thread.
Then don't quote me in your post? If you quote me, it seems like you are, in fact, addressing me unless you make it clear you aren't. Otherwise, I will continue to read it that you are. Which, in fact, is the reason why 90+% of people quote a post: to reply directly to them, to expound on the quoted point, etc. I don't often see someone quoting another's post "just for kicks and giggles." ;)

Smite is just not that powerful. It just isn't :)

Spells are just a more powerful use of slots.
Your views and experiences are most definitely in the minority. To be clear, I am NOT saying majority/popularity makes something "true" or valid--so let's not go there?

It is subjective, like the vast amount of everything in life. You feel the way you do? Fine. Most people won't agree with you.

And frankly, it depends on what you are trying to do with those spell slots. With all the other casters typically in most games, paladins have little to do with their spell slots other than smiting most of the time.

You said you don't know anyone who considered the spell weak. So yes, what someone else is on record saying is very relevant to your statement.
I still don't know them, nor do I know or care about whatever "rating" system they came up with or use. It is all subjective, and even so, now I know "two", you and them. :rolleyes:

Further you said it is stronger than any Paladin spell.
No, I said:
Smite is more powerful as written than pretty much any paladin spell.
So, stop misreading me, please. I very rarely (see what I am doing here?) deal in absolutes--it isn't in my alignment or personality (no Sith here, thank you!).

Paladins have something like over 50 spells I believe? You keep talking about a handful or two, so what 10-20% of spells you consider better than smiting? I would say that the remaining 80-90% of the other spells falls with my quantifier of "pretty much" in terms of any paladin spells.

Smites deal damage--that's it. So comparing them to spells which don't deal damage is inconsequential. Is a 3rd-level smite "more powerful" than revivify? Well, if your goal with the spell slot is to deal damage, of course it is! But if your goal is to return a recently deceased creature to life, of course it is not.

Most would consider SWS weaker than some of the Paladin's own 5th level spells; including Destructive Wave, Banishing Smite and Summon Celestial. Yet in terms of damage SWS is still about 3-4 times more powerful than using that same slot for a Divine Smite.
It is your belief what "most would consider", not mine, and certainly not fact. I can only judge by my own experiences and those others relate to me. How many people are you discussing this with here to seem to disagree with your premise that smite isn't that powerful, for instance?

Sometimes paladin spells have their uses, certainly, otherwise they wouldn't be spellcasters at all. But I have very often seen paladin players hold onto slots to purposefully use for smites when the time comes. They know and understand the incredible value of being able to smite.

Smite, in and of itself, is fantastic for damage (which is all it does). The extra d8 or two (on criticals) a smite can do over what a spell does of the same level is most often better than any rider a spell might have. You have all the different "smite" spells, which rarely (VERY) have ever seen the light of day in any game I've been part of.

The true game breaking (yes, game breaking) power of smites is in the critical hit. The vast damage potential a paladin can do in a single strike is overwhelming to the targets, often finishing them off IME. Is it costly, certainly, but from a DMs perspective it can ruin an encounter. Of course, the same can be said of sneak attack in that respect.

Anyway, I've already wasted too much time on this. Happy gaming! :)
 

It requires level 12 to do everything I listed, 9 levels in Vengeance Paladin and 3 in Echo Knight Fighter. Like I said, pick and choose which are reasonable to assume, but I play that build in a campaign and regularly pull off that many attacks for 300+ damage on turn 2 (or even turn 1 if imminent combat is obvious and pre-casting Haste is viable).

You will not be able to force an AOO on your turn with a P9/Echo 3

Using Haste and on the first turn you are making 4 attacks (Haste attack, Action Surge Extra Attack, Unleash Incarnation). You continue 4 per turn as long as you hang on to concentration.

Those 4 attacks if they all hit include 48 damage (using a Maul) and 17d8 in smites for another 76.5. That is 124.5 expending 2 3rd and 3 2nd level slots to do it. That is also if all hit, normally it will be like 90. In any case not even close to 300+


For comparison:
1. Bladesinger 9/Echo 3 can cast Shaddowblade at 5th level make 6 attacks and do 138 damage average on the first turn with a single 5th level slot (or as noted earlier 167.5 with steel wind strike) and a lot of times those attacks will be at advantage.

2. A Gloomstalker 9/Echo knight3 can do the UI/AS trick and get 8 attacks on his first turn and do 133 damage average with no spell slots expended.

3. A Hexblade 9/Echo 3 with metamagic adept can use UI/AS and get 6 weapon attacks and 3 Eldritch Blasts on his first turn and do 154.5 using two pact slots and 2 sorcery points. Also most of his weapon attacks will be at advantage

All of these examples are if everything hits and the majority of damage is comes from the Echo Knight subnclass. A 12th level Echo Knight on his turn can do 96 damage with action surge alone.

Like I said, this combo is not as OP as it is made out to be.
 
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