Harm and critical hits...

[Artoomis]

Sure, you can imagine the scenario below, but all indicators we have from game designers suggest that Harm was not intended to kill outright. That's not the way it ended up being written, of course, so you get to decide between the written rule and its intent.

We "know"?

How so?

I can easily imagine a Revision session with a conversation along the lines of:

"Well, we've nerfed Harm's high-end power, getting rid of the uncapped damage potential and giving it a save for half. Is that too much? Should we throw something back in?"
"I think we need to keep it capped. What about letting it kill on a failed save?"
"... sure, sounds good to me."

Why should we assume that what they wrote isn't what they meant, given all the other changes to the spell compared to previous editions?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure, you can imagine the scenario below, but all indicators we have from game designers suggest that Harm was not intended to kill outright.

Wasn't Andy Collins the 3.5 PHB guy?

Have we heard anything from him on the matter?

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Someone write him. The last Custserv answer someone posted said it doesn't kill IIRC.

 

[green slime]

I'm with Hypersmurf on this deal.

3.0 (and prevoius versions of harm) reduced the target to 1d4 hp of Death/unconsciousness. No damage limitation, and no save vs the touch attack.

3.5 Introduces a save; and STILL requires a touch attack, and ALSO introduces a hp limit to the damage caused. Which all greatly weaken the spell. Of course it was the intent of the creators to have it possibly kill the target on a failed save. It needs to retain some semblance of utility.

 

[strongbow]

We have heard from both sides and parsed, pushed, pulled, and hashed the language. We have asked game designers, customer service, invoked tradition, and many other things, all of which are good to the discussion.

Recall that clerics get a 5th level touch spell that kills you on a failed save, (Slay Living), and a 7th level spell that kills you at range, not a touch attack and deals 10d6 (Destruction).

Hmm. So what do arcane casters have that is single target and has some stopping power? Finger of Death
So let's compare:

Failed Save Passed Save
Slay Living Death 3d6 + clvl
Harm Death/10 Clvl max 150 1/2, no death
Destruction Death 10d6
Finger of Death Death 3d6 + clvl

In looking at these spells in context of version 3.5, it is difficult to draw any conclusions because of the ranged component and differences in spell level.
Slay Living and Harm are touch spells, so the increased element of danger is a factor in their use and I would offer the decisive factor in their construction.

Harm caps at 15th caster level so let us take a 15th level caster "Bob" and see what options Bob has. At 15th level he can cast Reached Slay Living to get an almost carbon copy of Finger of Death, or he could cast Destruction and get better damage on a failed save. Hmmm. Bob could cast Reached Harm to get the protection of range and deal a good deal of damage. If Bob were an arcane caster, he could cast an Empowered Disintegrate, dealing 30d6 +50%=an average of 157.5 on a failed save and average 26 on a passed save, which is ok but not the 75 on a failed save that harm deals.

As much as I hate to admit it, because of the much better damage that harm deals on a failed save it probably should not kill . I play a lot of clerics and like my death magic, but in looking at the spell changes as a whole the 3.5 designers made spells far less lethal (Hold Spells give saves every round, sleep was nerfed, Disintegrate does a paltry 2d6 per caster level. That's average 77 pts at 11th level and only 140 average at 20th level.) I'm giving my opinion in the rules forum I know, but it is helpful to remind people of what other death spells are like in 3.5.

Edit: I spaced out the spell failed/passed save but it posted all run together, sorry.

 

[Jhulae]

We have heard from both sides and parsed, pushed, pulled, and hashed the language. We have asked game designers, customer service, invoked tradition, and many other things, all of which are good to the discussion.

Recall that clerics get a 5th level touch spell that kills you on a failed save, (Slay Living), and a 7th level spell that kills you at range, not a touch attack and deals 10d6 (Destruction).

Hmm. So what do arcane casters have that is single target and has some stopping power? Finger of Death
So let's compare:

Failed Save Passed Save
Slay Living Death 3d6 + clvl
Harm Death/10 Clvl max 150 1/2, no death
Destruction Death 10d6
Finger of Death Death 3d6 + clvl

In looking at these spells in context of version 3.5, it is difficult to draw any conclusions because of the ranged component and differences in spell level.
Slay Living and Harm are touch spells, so the increased element of danger is a factor in their use and I would offer the decisive factor in their construction.

Harm caps at 15th caster level so let us take a 15th level caster "Bob" and see what options Bob has. At 15th level he can cast Reached Slay Living to get an almost carbon copy of Finger of Death, or he could cast Destruction and get better damage on a failed save. Hmmm. Bob could cast Reached Harm to get the protection of range and deal a good deal of damage. If Bob were an arcane caster, he could cast an Empowered Disintegrate, dealing 30d6 +50%=an average of 157.5 on a failed save and average 26 on a passed save, which is ok but not the 75 on a failed save that harm deals.

As much as I hate to admit it, because of the much better damage that harm deals on a failed save it probably should not kill . I play a lot of clerics and like my death magic, but in looking at the spell changes as a whole the 3.5 designers made spells far less lethal (Hold Spells give saves every round, sleep was nerfed, Disintegrate does a paltry 2d6 per caster level. That's average 77 pts at 11th level and only 140 average at 20th level.) I'm giving my opinion in the rules forum I know, but it is helpful to remind people of what other death spells are like in 3.5.

Edit: I spaced out the spell failed/passed save but it posted all run together, sorry.

Except, failing a save with all those other spells you mentioned can still result in a character's death.

A PC, even with 1 HP left (heck, even with 0) who makes a save agains Harm will never die from that spell, even from a 15th level caster. Who has to touch said PC. All those other spells are also ranged, if I'm not mistaken. That in and of itself is a big advantage to the other spells.

Does harm do more damage? Yes. Is it unbalanced if it kills when saving throws aren't made? Not really.

Oh, Hyp. That's a good point about the capped thing, too, for double damage and crits.

 

[buchw001]

HARM discussion

So, AS WRITTEN, everyone agrees, that harm can kill with a failed save.

My only question is how we should get the errata to reflect the appropriate change in the written punctuation / verbiage of the text.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My only question is how we should get the errata to reflect the appropriate change* in the written punctuation / verbiage of the text.

*matter of opinion

-Hyp.

 

[buchw001]

That is of course assuming the spell was NOT supposed to allow for death, but as written is, INCORRECT.