Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[TruffleGrubber]

Re: Re: Hrmmm

...What I do have beef with is that then he went on explaining that this detail (or 'realism', what the hell that is.) makes Harn a more intelligent game, for more intelligent gamers, as himself (implied)...

If you replace Intelligence with fanaticism that would come close to being true . You really do have to put the work in (particularly when you are new to Harn) on the front end to run a game. After you have run it for a while, it is not nearly that much work, the same as anything I guess. I think there is something about the ink that Columbia Games uses that just makes you an addict, changes your body chemistry or brain structure or some such. You just become a Harniac, and the reasons are pretty much what KK described earlier. Until it is experienced it is hard to explain. Even so, it definitely is not everyone's cup of tea.

The above was about Harn. Harnmaster, is a very nice system that fits very well with Harn. It appears complex at first glance, but truthfully my combats run faster in it than Higher Level combats do in d20. For a comparison of HM and d20 combat download this document. Which is located at Bill Gant's Harnmaster House Rules.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

What I mean by Harn requiring a more intelligent type of gamer is that the materials read like a college level medieval history book. You need a certain level of education, experience and sophistication to understand all the myriad details and complexities much more than with, say D&D, which is written for the lowest common denominator. D&D catering to the lowest common denominator is not a bad thing. Why? Because it makes D&D more accessible, easier to grasp and (gasp!) even fun for those who enjoy that sort of epic, high fantasy game, and for newcomers to RPGs in general. I got my start with D&D, and am glad it was there to indoctrinate me into the cult of RPG geekdom. My chaotic young teenage brain probably could have neither grasped, nor appreciated Harn back then. Now, after two decades of experience, it is (actually, it was ready a long time ago, but CGI's distribution is so bad, I could never find any Harn products).

The level and depth of writing in Harn products is generally written to the highest common denominator, which makes it much harder to wrap your brain around if you are a newbie gamer or come from a "video game mentality" D&D background. 1e was mysterious and dangerous. 2e was not so mysterious or dangerous. 3e is neither mysterious nor dangerous in the least. It is like playing a video game, and all about power-gaming and multi-classing for benefits rather than RPing reasons. Everything moves too fast, from level advancement to BAB, to spell acquisition. I still enjoy 3e/d20, but am becoming burned out on this video game mentality. I want to reintroduce that sense of danger and mystery to my games. Harn helps me do that. I am using a tweaked set of d20 house rules mixed with Call of Cthulhu d20 Sanity and Magic to run HarnWorld. I do not own HarnMaster, though I may end up trying it sooner or later. I don't claim HarnMaster to be the best RPG ever, but HarnWorld is the best fantasy setting I ever read, and the only one to make sense. It's still not perfect, but it really does inspire an addictive, fanatical quality in its adherents, especially the newly converted such as myself. That's because it provides something other settings never have: Realism to the nth degree.

Read it for yourself and see what I'm talking about. Harn is not about farmers or sitting around bored or depressed. Harn is about realistic adventures with realistic outcomes in a realistic world. Yes, there are a few monsters roaming about, but they are logically explained. Yes, there are a few wizards roaming about as well (perhaps 100 in all of Harn, most situated on Melderyn, the Wizard's Isle), but they are neither all-powerful nor all-knowing, and not the overblown folly that is Elminster. Harn is dangerous, because anybody can die at anytime from anything. Your uber-knight could still be taken out by a wily peasant girl with a kitchen knife, given half a chance. You never gain that feeling of invincible superiority that D&D engenders. You wake up knowing each day could be your last, no matter how rich or powerful or experienced you become. The laws of king and church bind and restrict you, spies are everywhere, waiting to whisper in the right ear and see you burned at the stake, beheaded or hanged. Harn is that first terrifying thrill you get when you realize you're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Be afraid. Be very afraid!

Harn is not all doom-n-gloom, either. I don't mean to give that impression. People laugh, joke and sing as they go about their daily tasks. You could go your whole life on Harn and never see a wizard or monster (not even an elf or dwarf!), and most people never do. That's the way they like it, and that's why Harn is different. No elves and dwarves always underfoot, no rampaging, ill-conceived hordes of monsters, no 30HD fireballs from above. Because these elements are all kept to a minimum, they become that much more special (or terrifying) when they are encountered!

 

[Ristamar]

The level and depth of writing in Harn products is generally written to the highest common denominator, which makes it much harder to wrap your brain around if you are a newbie gamer or come from a "video game mentality" D&D background. 1e was mysterious and dangerous. 2e was not so mysterious or dangerous. 3e is neither mysterious nor dangerous in the least. It is like playing a video game, and all about power-gaming and multi-classing for benefits rather than RPing reasons. Everything moves too fast, from level advancement to BAB, to spell acquisition. I still enjoy 3e/d20, but am becoming burned out on this video game mentality.

Whether you did it purposely or not, that passage is ripe with flamebait coated in your own personal opinions and cannot be construed as factual in any possible manner, save for the simple truth that you do progress faster in 3e than previous editions if you use the suggested XP distribution methods.

Personally, I hate when people compare 3e to video/computer games, especially Diablo II. 'Cause I really depise Diablo II (though, admittedly, I was briefly an addict).

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Whether you're aware of it or not, that passage is ripe with flamebait coated in your own personal opinions, and cannot be construed as factual in any possible manner, save for the fact that you do progress faster in 3e than previous editions if you use the suggested XP distribution methods.

Personally, I hate when people compare 3e to video/computer games, especially Diablo II. 'Cause I really depise Diablo II (though, admittedly, I was briefly an addict).

Um, have you even read Harn? Because if you had, you would know what I'm talking about. It requires you to rewire your brain (I had to rewire mine) in order to appreciate it, and it requires a higher level of reading comprehension to understand. It is not written for 13-14 year olds like D&D is. It is written for 21 year old plus people of a college education level. Flamebait was not intended, but I fail to see how you can testify in a public forum that 3e is not basically Diablo II with pen & paper, if you use the game as intended and as written. You certainly don't have to use it as such (and that is a strength of the system)), but the video game mentality of it tends to seep through and taint anything else you might choose to do with it, even with heavy tweaking. I know this because I have been tweaking 3e/d20 since its release. Over and over. The "vidiot" mentality sticks to it like flypaper. It can be subdued, but it can never be completely erased.

 

[Ristamar]

No, I have not yet read Harn, and it really has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. I can accept your word that Harn is gritty, realistic fantasy and I certainly know that D&D is geared more toward high fantasy. I know you say you're not trying to sound elitist, but you do sound elitist when you broach the subject in a manner similar to your previous posts.

Regardless, I don't want to get into a discussion about it, as it usually just devolves into a flamewar, so I'm bowing out of this thread.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Whether you did it purposely or not, that passage is ripe with flamebait coated in your own personal opinions and cannot be construed as factual in any possible manner, save for the simple truth that you do progress faster in 3e than previous editions if you use the suggested XP distribution methods.

Personally, I hate when people compare 3e to video/computer games, especially Diablo II. 'Cause I really depise Diablo II (though, admittedly, I was briefly an addict).

There is a kernel of truth to what he said in that lots of feats and fast levelling and weird abilities feel like Powerups to some people.

Personally I think the video game analogy is off the mark. I think d20 has a dash of "four-color" comic book. I like that but I have heard grumblings from some quarters on the matter.

All a matter of personal taste.

 

[Psion]

Um, have you even read Harn? Because if you had, you would know what I'm talking about.

Because it's the one true way, right?

I have Harn, and have read it (obviously). It's interesting, I even stole a few things from it. But nothing that was going to make me put my game down, and nothing that was that out-of-whack with the way I already gamed.

And no, I did not find the writing style that different than D&D. You sound like you are trying to assign objective merit to your opinions.

(I did find some of their font decisions a little wacky, however).

I fail to see how you can testify in a public forum that 3e is not basically Diablo II with pen & paper, if you use the game as intended and as written.

Uh, because it's not. What it's INTENDED to do is to use in any way you feel comfortable. And it accomodates many different angles. Flip open your DMG and read the part about "deep immersion roleplaying", and tell me that was not one of the possible intended modes of play.

I thought the little backstory book that came with Diablo II was pretty interesting. I was hoping that when they did the D&D diablo to, they would flesh out those ideas and make it into the type of living breathing setting that I expect from D&D.

Alas, my disappointment was that they didn't. The Diablo II books for D&D WAS just Diablo II P&P.

Sorry, KK. I consider this mentality entirely within the venue of yourself and your group, because it just doesn't pan out in most of the adult groups I have played with. You might consider the fact that your view is less than universal.

 

[Wolfspider]

REDACTED

 

[Patrick-S&S]

And no, I did not find the writing style that different than D&D. You sound like you are trying to assign objective merit to your opinions.

You seem serious but I still have to ask being the owner of both systems/worlds... Are you serious? There is a wide of a difference in the way of writing. Many people I know who reads the Hârn supplements scratch their heads, opens a dictionary to find some of the odd words, and most of all, usually need to look up certain terms and facts. And these are english speaking folks that I know. D&D 3E OTOH can be read by anyone with a mild degree in the English language. I am not saying that is a bad thing, only that D&D seems to be written for wider audience, young as old. Hârn OTOH IS written with a style and flavor that will need some knowledge that you do not need with D&D.

I am not saying this is good or bad, or blowing dust in this and that system, but there is a big difference. Video mentality is not what I think of when I see/read (not play...) D&D. I see more heroic campaigns and gaming that no doubt is fun for those who use it. But as I recall with all of the d20 mods and stuff out there this system could be used for any setting and type of gaming. That is probably what is so strong about its popularity. But I digress. HârnMaster is for me the ultimate system but I do not want to barge in here stroking my book and look slanderous at those who enjoy D&D. There is room for all kinds of games.

But there is still a big difference in the writing style, for good or bad, between D&D and Hârn. Simple fact...

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Wait! Because 3e feels like a video game to me, it is an inappropriate analogy for me to use?

When I say that it is "intended" and "written" for a certain style of play, I back that up with People's Exhibit A, your Honor:

1. Everything that WoTC has produced for it!

a. How they have geared the combat to be practically miniatures required to "prepare" customers for the flop that was Chainmail!

b. How everything is over the top high fantasy hack-n-slash, never any other type! Other styles of play are (barely) mentioned in the DMG, but only mindless high fantasy hack-n-slash is officially supported, and this style is further supported by much of the output of the various third party publishers.

c. How they have drastically sped up leveling, level benefits, and made it practically impossible to play without multiclassing or prestige classing! I call this "morphing" and this is exactly what happens to heroes in many popular video games.

I rest my case.