Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

Psion, I understand my view is less than universal. Most people are perfectly content to play D&D. There's nothing wrong with that; I was one of them for many years. But when I express the desire to play something more realistic and yes, more intelligently crafted and written than D&D, I am burned at the stake as a heretic. The simple fact, as Patrick pointed out, is that Harn is more intelligently crafted, detailed and written than any other fantasy setting ever devised. The fact that this does not make it the most popular proves that most people prefer a high fantasy, hack-n-slash (and yes, "video game") style of play.

I'm smart, RPG savvy, and well-educated, but still had difficulty reading Harn and frequently had to look up definitions of unfamiliar words in the dictionary. There are a lot of terms and concepts that never see the light of day in D&D, because D&D does not concern itself with how a realistic "sword & sorcery" society would operate. So, those who prefer not to "sweat the details" can jump right in to D&D, while those who want a more complex and realistic "alternate reality" pick Harn. Both choices are valid.
 
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Burned at the stake as a heretic? Maybe you should stop throwing flames and insults around.

What is so great about the Harn system that makes you so superior and intelligent just by playing it? What is so great about the rules and mechanics?

Geoff.
 

I'm not throwing flames or insults around. I'm stating facts. I never said it makes me smarter because I play it. I said it requires you to be smarter than the level D&D products are written at to be able to understand and appreciate it. This is not a slam against people playing D&D. Harn is written at a college level, and D&D is written at a middle school level. Try reading them both and compare. Which requires a higher degree of reader comprehension and vocabulary?
 
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KK I would like to say you are your own worst enemy and BTW a bad walking advertisement to Harn. I had actually been interested in this game because it sounded like it had some cool things I could use. I am of the ilk that prefers my fantasy to be fantastic (if I want gritty realism, I'll read the paper, which by the way, is written at about a 6th grade level so us D&D types can understand it). But some of the detail in Harn appealed to me. Now I see several self professed "Harniacs" and I find the lot of them to be contemptuous, holier than thou, self righteous blow hards who belittle a system AND it's players/users by making sweeping generalizations about their level of education, knowledge, vocabulary, and gaming style. I'll contend that you have never played in one of my D&D games (and I'm pretty sure I'd remember someone like you sitting at my gaming table) and therefore have no right to assume what my game is like. Your thinly veiled loathing of D&D and the "lowest common denominator" dregs of humanity that it MUST attract are irritating, biased, prejudiced and down right infantile. I would never be so presumptuous as to assume anything was over the head of someone I had never met, yet you have done so emphatically in several posts in this thread. So you think Harn is the most intellectual game system ever devised. Bully for you. Glad to hear it. I understand what you are trying to say even through the gritted teeth and venomous bile you spew forth between what might be compelling argument were it not for the aforementioned spewing. The problem is, I can't trust your opinion because you show such a bias. Someday, maybe, I'll become interested in Harn again, but I doubt it will be any time soon. Good day, and let the flames rain down. I held my tongue as long as I could, and tried to be polite as possible in my previous post. I will neither be reading nor responding to ths thread any further, because I really don't want a few bad apples to spoil my Harn bunch. If you care to send me flame e-mail, by all means, but keep your contempt limited to that forum so my associates in this one don't have to hear it anymore in here. Good day.
 

Hmm. I think the problems are as follows:

1. Attempting to explain the differences between Harn and D&D result in the following non-Harniac comments:

a) The pro-Harn poster is an elitist pig.
b) Harn is a place where everything is boring and people play farmers.
c) The anti-Harniacs are allowed to make jokes and ridicule the pro-Harn posters, but the pro-Harn posters are not allowed to make jokes, even when they use a smiley-face.
d) The anti-Harniacs are free to conveniently ignore facts as they see fit, if they bother to respond to them at all.
e) When the anti-Harniacs call for clarification and get it, they then call the Harniac an "elitist pig." ;)

When I said earlier that the average person in the game store was a smelly fat guy with a beard, I mean that is the average person in my game store. Your game store may vary, but they anti-social weirdos are the most frequently encountered type of gamer (regardless of system or setting) and thus serve as the public's perception of ALL gamers. I never said that all non-Harn gamers are fat smelly weirdos, LOL, and that all D&Ders are, nor would I ever dare to do so, for such is patently not true. There are a lot of fat smelly weirdos out there playing all kinds of RPGs, however. :D

When I said that most people prefer high fantasy hack-n-slash, and that such settings are not as realistic or detailed as Harn, that is true, and backed up by the sales figures. That does not mean to imply that D&D is played by idiots, only those who prefer a simpler, less complicated (and therefore less realistic) game. I said either was a valid choice, didn't I? I like high fantasy fine, but am tired of it. I may come back to it someday, but right now I want gritty low fantasy, and am appreciating the level of detail involved in HarnWorld. There is no comparison between it and D&D's settings.
 
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Whoa boy Whoooooooaaaaaa!

Please, please don't paint us all with the same brush, I too am a harniac and love it, I also play DnD and AEG's L5R.

I am not trying to say KK is a bad example either, just enthusiastic and full of passion. The good members of this board asked him to explain and he did, some people where insulted, others indifferent, but for you to make an informed judgment one must view the material. So I politely urge you to not be put off by what others may have inadverdantly said or implied, and if you are truly interested, and as fair as some of you have stated, read the available material and then make up your own mind.

Lets not all fall into the same trap and do the merry go round of tit for tat, there is enough of that in the world already.

So I urge you to see for your self then decide whether harniacs are "elitist pigs" or not. Having played and GM'ed both systems that is a cross I am willing to bear to play my favourite system.

Regards

RS

:) Its catching
 
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KK, calling your opinions facts doesn't make them so. A man of higher education, as yourself, should know that.

I would also argue that D&D 3E is quite intelligently crafted itself. It was designed to be a smash success in the (then) diminishing RPG business, and it was. Is that stupid design?

You're also somehow implying that "realism" makes for inherently better gaming. Thats not a fact, it's your opinion. I can respect that, but just don't call your opinions facts. And have respect for other peoples opinions too.

You'll get your point accross much easier. As it is now, you've just annoyed me with this Harn crap. Not intrested me the least bit in it. (Though I'm well educated myself, and have no trouble reading history books.)
 

Greetings!

Wow! Well, hmmm...some thoughts--

Harn, like Rolemaster, is written to a higher reading level--their market niche has generally been college-level adults, whereas D&D--back in the day, as currently in 3rd Edition--is written at a lower reading level, and generally aimed at the 12-18 year old market segment. Obviously, then, as now, many people who are older than that, and impressively educated, play and enjoy D&D.

I happen to like D&D very much! I also like Harn, and I have some Harn stuff in my library, as well as D&D stuff, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Talislanta, Rolemaster, and so on.

Making such an observation shouldn't insult anyone. Those are merely facts, and I have seen over the years where people who worked for Rolemaster and D&D have said just that. I haven't read it expressly from Harn, but from the reading level evidenced in their various rules and modules, it does seem to generally be at a higher level than D&D.

Is the prime age-market for D&D generally teenage males?

Well, yes. Is there any who would seriously deny this fact?

Rolemaster has a primary market focus of college-adults, generally 24-and up. I've played Rolemaster for some ten years, and as a personal observation, I can't say that I have ever met anyone who plays Rolemaster who is younger than 22, and quite educated.

Rolemaster is extremely detailed, with charts and charts and tables for everything. It can, for many, become incredibly complicated, in a number of ways.

For anyone who has played Rolemaster, is there any real doubt about this fact?

I also played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay for about four-five years as well. Warhammer is generally low-fantasy, low-magic, and very gritty, if with a quirky, dark sense of melodrama and humour.

Still, after awhile, Warhammer has it's limitations, and there are some very cool campaigns and interesting stories that only D&D can do. Warhammer can't do many of the cool things that D&D can do. That's just the way it is. Gritty and "Low-Fantasy" can become old.

Harn seems--in whatever edition--I've seen several over the years, and Harn does go back quite a ways--to be quite detailed, and more complexly designed than D&D. It aims for realism, and accurate details in everything.

Harn tends to remind me a bit of a strange blend of Pendragon, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and Rolemaster.

Still, Harn is detailed, and interesting. Even if it is low-magic and gritty, isn't that ok? There are a whole lot of people here at EN-World who sing the praises of GRR Martin, and grittiness. I'd think that Harn would be a great rave here!

Then again, what's so wrong about D&D? Grittiness and low-fantasy can be great--I happen to mix a lot of grittiness into my own campaigns--but, like "High-Fantasy", it too, can get boring and dull. Then, you need lots of dragons, powerful magic, and crazy monsters running around!:) Isn't that ok, too?

I suppose I don't understand all the heat generated about a game system. I play D&D for many reasons, but two of the biggest reasons are the following:

(1) D&D is simple, swift, and smoothly deployed and applied. From skills to spells, to classes and combat, everything works relatively smoothly, and is easily understood, whether I have players who are 12, and just starting to get into roleplaying games--a 20-year campaign veteran, a razor sharp college student--or someone who is a professional adult, who has never gamed before, and is just getting started.

(2) Unlike Rolemaster, Harn, or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, it is far easier to find new or additional people who are interested in playing D&D. Attracting new players can, at times, be a distinct challenge for using virtually any game system other than D&D, or perhaps Vampire or whatever White Wolf does. Try Harn, Rolemaster, Pendragon, Gurps, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and so on, to find players--or *gasp*--someone experienced, knowledgeable, and willing--to GM those games! I have found over the years a few players, beyond my tight group, but GM's?--in my experience, they are very unusual.

However, D&D is a big name, easily identified with, and many people are enthusiastic and eager to play 3E D&D, for the first time, or to get back into gaming.

For example, this last week, I got my two nieces, and my mother-in-law to sit in on a game of D&D with my wife and sister-in-law. If I had dropped Harn or Rolemaster on them, they would never have been able to play.

That isn't to say that any of them are dumb, or uneducated, but like many other gamers out there, many people who game are not interested in *large* amounts of details, too much reading, and too much activity that reminds them of work, in order to play. I have one friend, he loves to play, and he's quite intelligent, but he just doesn't have the patience to read for more than about 20 minutes, or a few pages. He gets tired of reading, and wants to get on with it and play. He is more of a "doer" than a "reader."

To be honest, a lot of people who play nowadays--that are adults with jobs, college, or kids--simply don't have the time or energy to read lots of books and absorb lots of detail. I am a DM, and yet, I can say that I have to focus my time very carefully, and balance many different responsibilities. There was a time when I had nothing but time!:)

I say that as merely some thoughts on why games like Rolemaster, Pendragon, and in this particular case,--Harn--are not anywhere near as popular as D&D. I think these factors play into those games being less attractive, and therefore less played.

Something else--I like lots of details, and even realism. I love details, actually!:) However, as noted above, speed, simplicity, efficiency, and the fantastic, can all come in very handy. Realism and detail, taken to great levels, almost inevitably slow the entire game down, and make everything a longer process. That slowness of pace, and longer process, even for educated, intelligent people, can in itself become tedious and vexing. Eventually, like with D&D, everything can feel quite refreshing, and easily changeable. D&D's great flexibility is refreshing, and even inspiring.

For example, with Warhammer, Pendragon, or Harn, you can *only* play *ONE* kind of game--that is generally gritty/realistic/"low-fantasy". However, with D&D, one can mix and match rule variants, tweak details, use or discard options, and play "Low-Fantasy" or "High-Fantasy"--or something in between. And yet, D&D will still work just as smoothly, just as simply, just as flexibly.

One cannot change such with Harn, or Warhammer, or Pendragon, and have it remain the same game. Such is "hard-wired" into the system, as it were. To alter such a fundamental series of concepts would tax the system to its breaking, for they were designed expressly to be "low-fantasy"/gritty/realistic. Changing those base parameters distorts the game beyond recognition, and presents an array of problems.

Well, it's late, so forgive my ranting. I like D&D, and I also like Harn. They are both cool game-systems/worlds. Remember to have fun!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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