HARP vs D&D

[buzz]

I don't know if he was trying to sell HARP or more like just stating the general point that the majority of d20 gamers do feel superior towards other products and the majority are unwilling to give other games a fair shot.

I'm still not understanding where people get off making blanket, asinine attributions like this. Has there been a mass exodus from RPG.net lately?

The market research WotC did when they were preparing for the release of 3e showed that people who are happy with D&D tend to stick with it. They do try other RPGs, but they tend to try less than those people who are not happy with D&D, instead spending their gaming dollars on D&D product.

This, IME, shows a general tendency (which other aspect of the study also mention): gamers, after a period of experimentation, tend to settle on systems they enjoy, and are often reluctant to try new systems simply because learning any new system (particularly mechanics-heavy ones) involves a not-insignificant investent of time, money, and resources. I haven't met many gamers who think d20 is inherretly superior, but I have met many who are happy with it and will opt to stick with it over learning yet another system. The ones I've met that are particularly staunch about this, however, have been feew and far between.

IME, I tend to find the kind of attitude you and AIM are describing FAR more prevalent among the D&D/d20-hating crowd. I.e., "the majority feel superior towards D&D/d20 products and are unwilling to give these games a fair shot." Just look at how this discussion of HARP has brought people who feel the need to complain about d20 out of the woodwork. Heck, just try having a discussion about d20 over at RPG.net or The Forge.

Conversely, have a discussion about non-d20 systems here at ENWorld, and you usually have a very lively, friendly discussion (barring this one, maybe).

 

[buzz]

Repeating this because herein lay enlightenment.

I sort of think you are missing the point.

Trying to sell a Fantasy game on the supposition that your market is disapointed in some way is an uphill battle. It dwells on an assumed negative. Why is simple: many people who play other games play D&D too. Trying to market to anti-D&Ders, in addition to the general stigma of non-professionalism such a move holds, will automatically net you a smaller target audience.

Much better by far to dwell on the positive. Define your game in terms of what it can do not in terms of what D&D can't. By defining the selling point of your game in terms of D&D, you lose out of the staring gate.

 

[buzz]

I dont think that D&D has any real "problems" that need to be fixed, but I'm impressed enough with Rasyr's behavior on this thread that I'm more inclined to give HARP a look-see. Kudos, sir.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I am one of the disenfranchised AD&D players that was not converted by the d20 fantasy system (so called "D&D 3e"). For me much of it was the flavor of the game that was changed in converting it to a new rules system and the deliberate change in style to "sci-fi-goth-dungeon-punk."

I tried Rolemaster Fantasy because of the excellent "Tolkenesque" feel to the game but I could not get around the chart intensive and math intensive nature of the rules. I have not very closely examined HARP, but it does seem that it retains the Tolkenesque fantasy feel that I like and is a much simpler version of the old Rolemaster rules set.

I have tried GURPS and HERO as fantasy rules system, but I have discovered that they (and other point based systems) are not really games, but KITS for making your own game. The strong point to me of AD&D or even d20 fantasy is not just the rules system framework, but the add ons that make it a game: encounter tables, pregenerated and balanced foes for appropriate PC power levels, modules, etc.

I especially like adventure modules for game systems because it gives me concrete, in game applications of the rules to learn the feel of the system and to determine how the game designers intend for certain rules to affect game play.

Does HARP have adventure modules?

 

[Gentlegamer]

I forgot to add that I'm also an enthusiast of HACKMASTER, but I am also looking for a real alternative FRPG that does not use Vancian/Harold Shea style magic and is class-based.

 

[Aaron2]

That's the spiritual Mt.Everest facing HARP; the question "What can you do differently than D&D with it?" And answering that it handles skills differently, or it handles magic differently or something like that isn't going to cut it. If it wants to have success, it has to explain how it is doing something new and innovative gaming, filling a niche that neither D20 nor other popular RPGs do not already occupy.

If HARP was released as a multi-genre game, ie it had magic and psionics and hi-tech equipment and skills, then it would automatically do something D&D doesn't do. There isn't a simple class/level based multi-genre game on the market (at least that I'm aware of). d20 Modern insured that there would always be a split in the fantasy/non-fantasy d20 world.

As it is, HARP is in a crowd with many other good non-d20 fantasy games such as Pendragon, WFRP, Burning Wheel, and Riddle of Steel. Its a pretty crowded field.


Aaron

 

[scranford]

Real Harp Experience

I recently (3-months) ago converted my group over to Harp. I had always been a big fan of the Warhammer world, but hated the mechanics. I chose Harp after reading the rules, mainly due to its flexability in creation. I can take all the careers from WHFRPG, and easily convert them into Harp training packages. All the spells are also easily converted. After one week of play my players were ready to Lynch me. After week two and less prejudice towards the system (especially from the former Rolemaster haters), they said "OK lets give it a chance". Now you couldn't tear the system away from them.

The reason I switched from d20 to begin with was threefold. First I wasn't a big fan of the inflexability of Class/Race design, Second, I hated the fire and forget magic system, Third, Combat seemed bland with the "I hit for 8 points of damage" mechanics. To consider these areas of discontent in order I found the following advantages of Harp.

First, in order to make a character who can do minor magical healing, Rage, and Shapechange in D&D you must take levels of Cleric/Druid, Barbarian, and Druid, and must have at least 5th level in Druid for the Shapechange. In Harp this character could be developed from the beginning. Sure you would be weak in other areas, but you could from the very beginning of the game play your "concept" of your character. Not struggle through several levels of gaming to achieve this. This to me is system flexability, and the major difference between the two systems. Everything Skills, Attacks, Spells, Endurance Points, Power points, Resistance Rolls (saving throws), and Talents (Feats) are developed using the same mechanic.

Second, the magic system rocks. Especially with the release of College of Magic (pdf only at this time). By spending his development points wisely, even a low level spellcaster can be really effective at some spells, but the truely spectacular spells, are limited by the amount of ranks you have in the spell/skill. You don't throw away your sleep spell at tenth level you power up the amount affected, range, radius etc. and keep it useful.

Third, the combat, especially with the expanded critical tables from Martial Law, make combat much more exciting. Its great having the characters stop in middle of an adventure, to try and find a herb, or something to reattach the Ranger / Scouts ear so he can continue to spot the baddies first.

These are true differences in the systems and why my group is now sold on Harp. This is best summized by the systems harshest critic, and a fellow GM whom usually runs Basic Role Playing system games, when he had to miss the last session. "I really can't make it, but, email me and let me know what happened". He is actually anticipating the game for a change, instead of complaining about the system.

I still play d20 / OGL. I still like the system, but for gamemastering I am sold on Harp. It is different.

 

[buzz]

There isn't a simple class/level based multi-genre game on the market (at least that I'm aware of).

Grim Tales!
BESMd20!
And heck, d20 Modern.

d20 Modern insured that there would always be a split in the fantasy/non-fantasy d20 world.

Iron Lords of Jupiter.

 

[Rasyr]

Does HARP have adventure modules?

Not yet, but it will. First we want to get the core setting for HARP out and available. It is called Cyradon. I happen to think that Cyradon is an excellent setting that provides for all sorts of different styles of play.

Here is the basic setup for Cyradon (Note: Cyradon is the name of a small continent on this world).

On another continent, this one empire has started a war against a neighboring country. They are trying to exterminate it for one reason or another, and th smaller country has hired a bunch of soldiers from other lands as well.

The Evil Empire is winning, and have recently captured the main city of the small country, but a couple of thousand refugees has escaped into the nearby mountains. As they are trying to escape from the invading hordes, they stumble upon an ancient dwarven outpost and take refuge in it. While exploring it, they somehow trigger one of an ancient system of gates, opening a tunnel to someplace else. They go through it because to stay would mean sure death.

Upon exiting the gate, they find themselves in an ancient city built upon the sides of an extinct volcano. The city is situated on the northern end of a small mountain chain. The area surrounding the city for hundreds of miles is nothing more than a blasted ruin, destroyed by some cataclysmic event in the past.

They are approached and befriended by the inhabitants of the city, the Gryphons (yes, Gryphons are PCs in this setting). A few days later, not one, but two armies of Raesha show up (elven variants), one wanting to slaughter them and the other wanting to protect the humans. While things are still tense between the 4 groups (The humans, the Gryphons, the Arali Raesha, and the Desnian Raesha - the Arali are the ones who want the humans dead), the gate opens again, and out comes several hundred Mablung (think dwarves), who insult the Raesha and then go on their way, to search for and find one of their own ancient cities and to try and restore it. For the mean-time, they settle close by. Also, another race shows up, the Nagazi, civilized descendants of the Nagah, hated foes of the Gryphons, they also throw their support behind the humans. This causes tensions (ever more) between the Arali and the Desnians as the Arali knew of them, but didn't tell the Desnians.

Also a few more individual visitors show up and one night a ceremony is performed, lead by the Rhona (a group of Gnome-like beings who are tied to the land and have been trying to restore it), and something unexpected happens! The ritual, which woud have normally restored a few square miles (and need to be renewed periodically), has much much more power than ever thought, and an area about 100 miles across is restored. It seems that the humans were the missing key. A fact that the Arali does not like (the actual events surrounding the cause of the devastation are somewhat cloudy, but it involved a group of Human Wizards who had settled in this ancient city, the Arali, and some other Raesha who wanted to be given wings - hidiously scarred by the devastation, those few Raesha who survived are now known as the Schirae (bad attitudes, vestigal wings, lots of self mutilation, and a lust for killing just about everybody who isn't one of them).

Over the course of several days a compromise is reached (one the Arali do not like) and the city, Belynar, becomes the home of the displaced humans, and it opens as a free trade center between the other races.

Thus Cyradon offers lots of political intrigue for those who want that sort of adventure. Lots of exploration for those who like that sort, including dungeon crawls as the city is not only built upon the volcano, but inside it as well, and there are tons of tunnels and things under the city, and some of which harbor things best left alone.....

There is, I think, something for everybody!

Once Cyradon is released, we will be able to start producing modules.

 

[Rasyr]

If HARP was released as a multi-genre game, ie it had magic and psionics and hi-tech equipment and skills, then it would automatically do something D&D doesn't do. There isn't a simple class/level based multi-genre game on the market (at least that I'm aware of). d20 Modern insured that there would always be a split in the fantasy/non-fantasy d20 world.

HARP will be doing a sci-fi version next year. The way the the professions and skill purchasing are set up, you can easily mix the genres (this was pure serendipity and realized only after the design had been completed).