HARP vs D&D

[ecliptic]

ICE's little promotion is suppose to be good? I usually get 30% off at Amazon. With this I get $15 back for sending them $30 worth of d20 books ontop of the fact I get to pay shipping on the books I send. Not to mention I got to take the time out of my busy day to send them the books.

Ofcourse its not like they are hurting themselves. They will probably sell the books at 40% of their cover price to game shops.

HARP would probably be more popular if they would have actually took d20, ripped out some of its mechanics and add in some of its own. The fact that d20 is so flexible kinda nullifies the need for HARP to begin with. There is no incentive for me to switch. I am happy with the rule system I use, from BESM to Star Wars.

 

[Nisarg]

You seem to have this "d20 but better" notion stuck in your head and I think you do a great disservice to those that are dissatisfied with aspects of the d20 system that what they're looking for is what d20 provides but better. Whatever that means.

I think a lot of people are more interested in being able to play in a fantasy setting without being constricted by the rigidity of the d20 system. They want more flexibility in the mechanics. It's not better, it's not worse, it's different and allows you to create a game with a different feel; one you're not going to get in d20 no matter how hard you try. Some of the hard core d20 devotees I know have a hard time comprehending how the mechanics can change how a game feels. I once tried to share the Shadowrun world with some of these friends through d20 Modern, because they would not play the real game. d20 Modern, which isn't even very good at what it's supposed to do (IMO), cannot create the same atmosphere as the SR system, simply because there are certain SR mechanics that contribute to how the game feels and runs. Try explaining this and they make comments on how the mechanics don't matter it's about the story or whatever. Well, not in my experience.

Anyway, my point is that a different mechanic or series of mechanics can often open up new and different role-playing experiences. Indeed, there have been enough threads on this very forum lamenting the wargame feel of 3.0/3.5 versus earlier editions. Whether you agree with that assessment or not, it is an issue out there, being discussed by the D&D/d20 community.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying that there is no room for another system; in fact, there's even room for another fantasy system and fantasy settings that can be played outside D&D.

What I am saying is that said systems have to be something you couldn't do with either D20 or D20+"house rules". It has to be SUFFICIENTLY different.

Shadowrun, for example, is sufficiently different that it drew a permanent fanbase. Even now that its going D20, that won't stop the main system from continuing to exist.

But a system that doesn't manage to be more than just something that looks like a house-ruled D20 system, or D20 with different dice, or D20 without levels, or something along those lines, will not be likely to get ENOUGH adherents (there'll always be someone who'll like every game, the question is whether there'd be enough) to stabilize into a solid profitable fan base.

Nisarg

 

[ecliptic]

Shadowrun, for example, is sufficiently different that it drew a permanent fanbase. Even now that its going D20, that won't stop the main system from continuing to exist.

Since when is Shadowrun going d20?

 

[Nisarg]

Since when is Shadowrun going d20?

Uh, never mind, pretend you never saw that.

 

[Rasyr]

Let's take a "for example" on a magical quandary that has plagued many rules systems:

How does HARP handle illusions? Do some of them have the option of being "partially real" with respect to damage or solidity of effect? If so, what controls are put in place to make sure they a) don't outshine the other, "fully real" spells (whatever you have for fireball, or summon monster for example) or b) don't allow a low-level caster to make a "partially real" demigod that can kill every low level opponent, even if only "partially real"? Can any illusions "Scare you to death/unconsciousness"?

Illusions can have sense attributes added to them, so that they smell and/or feel real (note: this would be something added at the time of casting, upping the cost of the spell and the difficulty in casting it). However, an illusion is a Utility spell. This means that cannot be used to damage a foe.

Thus, if you have an illusion with the touch sense added. The character could touch it and it would feel real. However if the illusion tried to attack the character and hit him, it would never do damage, the target would feel something akin to a light slap (no damage) before the touch sense portion broke, and the illusion passed through him

And no, an illusion cannot scare a person unconscious or to death simply because an illusion cannot radiate a fear effect (though the mage could cast the Fear spell to make folks think that it does...).

 

[Numion]

Was that from individuals? From the ICE advertising (which I really have little to do with)? From HARP players?

Not from ICE advertising, I should've mentioned it. Mostly from individuals and HARPists on messageboards and chatrooms .. even the ENWorld chat, you know who I'm talking about

Emotional attachments should never be scoffed at, however, it is important to be able to realize that attachment, and filter information as much as possible so that you actually get the information and are not seeing red by something that may have just been mis-phrased. Unfortunately, this is an extremely difficult skill to master (I can do sometimes, but not always), so don't feel bad, or think of yourself as "small" for doing this. It just happens to be how people are wired... hehe

I actually don't think that this would hinder peoples views of seeing the faults of D&D. I know that the system has flaws and things I'd done differently. However, I enjoy the game greatly. It has the best support, and while your point about quality control is good, it's made moot by the fact that while there is lots of crap on the market, there are also more good products for d20 than for any other system. It also does tha archetypal adventuring with all it's surreal and unreal qualities very well.

Why would I ditch that system because of a few mechanics that bother me, to end up with a system with flaws of its own? 3.0E works great for me, I've got supplements for it to last a long time .. so HARP would be a hard sale. I might consider new RM though if you don't dumb it down too much

FWIW the marketing campaign with refunds for d20 books is great. It shows you guys have a good confidence on your product, and its not a knock vs. D&D, since it requires action on the d20 owners part too.

 

[Rasyr]

ICE's little promotion is suppose to be good? I usually get 30% off at Amazon. With this I get $15 back for sending them $30 worth of d20 books ontop of the fact I get to pay shipping on the books I send. Not to mention I got to take the time out of my busy day to send them the books.

Well, HARP is not sold through Amazon, nor will it be. And you get to select the method of shipping (i.e. you can send it media mail if you like which is the lest expensive). As to the last, nothing we can do for that.

Ofcourse its not like they are hurting themselves. They will probably sell the books at 40% of their cover price to game shops.

No, we won't resell them to game shops. We are expecting to see the worst books ever done for d20 being sent to us. Those will get sent on to recycling, while the few good ones will end up on e-bay.

HARP would probably be more popular if they would have actually took d20, ripped out some of its mechanics and add in some of its own.

Actually, if we had done that, then HARP would be a "fantasy heartbreaker" such as Nisarg is talking about. There is also the fact that doing anything in d20 is, in fact, "playing with somebody else's toys". How many companies died when Wotc went from 3.0 to 3.5? How many were hurt because of it? Too many. In a recent interview with Charles Ryan, Charles did his best to avoid answering such a question, only to the extent to say it won't be in 2005. (Personally, I expect D&D 4.0 in mid to late 2006 - it fits the CCG business model that wotc seems to have adopted for its rpgs).

But that is a bit off-topic.. hehe. Back to the subject at hand. ICE is staying away from licensing other people's properties totally, so it will never do a d20 product.

The fact that d20 is so flexible kinda nullifies the need for HARP to begin with. There is no incentive for me to switch. I am happy with the rule system I use, from BESM to Star Wars.

Well, the flexibility of d20 is a matter of opinion, and as always, opinions will differ from person to person. If you are happy with what you are playing, that is GREAT! However, not everybody is. HARP provides an alternative for those who want something else.

 

[Psion]

I think the market any of these types of games is looking to fill is those gamers who have tired of rigidness of the d20 system and want something different.

I sort of think you are missing the point.

Trying to sell a Fantasy game on the supposition that your market is disapointed in some way is an uphill battle. It dwells on an assumed negative. Why is simple: many people who play other games play D&D too. Trying to market to anti-D&Ders, in addition to the general stigma of non-professionalism such a move holds, will automatically net you a smaller target audience.

Much better by far to dwell on the positive. Define your game in terms of what it can do not in terms of what D&D can't. By defining the selling point of your game in terms of D&D, you lose out of the staring gate.

 

[Rasyr]

Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying that there is no room for another system; in fact, there's even room for another fantasy system and fantasy settings that can be played outside D&D.

What I am saying is that said systems have to be something you couldn't do with either D20 or D20+"house rules". It has to be SUFFICIENTLY different.

Actually, what it appears that you are saying is that you do not like any system which may be competition for D&D. You have made 14 (out of the 24 total that you have) posts on this thread alone, all of them attacking HARP either directly or indirectly.

Fine, you do not like HARP. No problem, but your continual attacks against it, most of which are based solely on your opinions, are doing nothing but making you look bad in the end. Although, I must admit that they are bring more attention to HARP than if you had kept quiet, so for this, I thank you.

But a system that doesn't manage to be more than just something that looks like a house-ruled D20 system, or D20 with different dice, or D20 without levels, or something along those lines, will not be likely to get ENOUGH adherents (there'll always be someone who'll like every game, the question is whether there'd be enough) to stabilize into a solid profitable fan base.

Guess what? HARP is selling quite well, and is also continually growing its fan base. It is not fast, but we add one or two people each week and that is a steady growth. Slow and steady growth is what will make HARP last. HARP has already sold through one print run and is about half-way through its second. That is a very good start, I would say.

ICE was not looking for a "flash in the pan" type of game. It was looking for something that allowed easier entry into style of play that was first found in Rolemaster, but without the baggage that Rolemaster trails behind it.

In about a year or two, HARP will be at the point that its sale will sustain ICE well enough that we can shut down the Rolemaster lines and totally revise it like it really needs. Until then, HARP grows and continues to do so.... (and yes, against all reason, RM still sells well also)

 

[Garlak]

The more I look at HARP the more I think it fixes most of D&D's problems.

Skills are more important.
HP don't go up like a rocket.
Flexible classes and magic.
Defense affects damage you take.
Optional system to replace crit tables in the rule book.

HARP has a lot going for it.