HARP vs D&D

[Rasyr]

First, I wasn't aware that Tim had made a point of rejecting DRM-Pdfs. Kudos to him for that, its an example of a good business idea and attention to his customer's concerns.

When DTRPG first opened we looked at the reaction. We then did some testing on the PDFs and found that the restrictions were pretty much non-existant and worthless. We had been thinking about possibly using the same system that DTRPG is using to create free PDFs that expired in something like 2 days, to use as preview of a product.

However, the mass negative reaction to DRM, and the lack of security finally convinced the boss that DRM was not the way to go. The reasoning behind the Baen Free Library ( http://www.baen.com/library/ ) also helped a lot in this, and the decision was made that our PDFs would have no DRM of any sort.

We also figured that we *want* to trust our customers. They appreciate this, and often inform us of any illegal sharing that they find. They are the true treasure here.

Also, I will second what someone else said on here, regarding the magic system being the best part of Harp. It is quite well done.

Aww.... now you are going to make me blush!

That magic system actually started out as my own first attempts to make a skill based psionics system before Spacemastersrivateers came out. I only got it about half finished, as SM was released and I moved on to using its system.

Then, while discussing Arcane magic (RM Arcane, not D&D Arcane), I got the idea of the evolution of magic, and part of that evolution included less distinct spells than what RM had. Spells that were very customizable and flexible when cast. Then when designing HARP, I brought the two ideas together and there it is...

College of Magics contains rules for making your own spells, and with just a little bit of effort, this could actually be turned into a "create spells on the fly" type of system. <--- blatant plug, yes, but I couldn't resist hehe

Now, why do I say percentage dice are intuitively "roll low"? Its because whenever we deal with percentages, in mathematics, if we are told there is a "50% chance" of something happening, and our brains tend to imagine that in terms of 1-50=success, 51-100=failure. To have to roll high with percentiles is one of the few times where roll-high is counter-intuitive. With almost any other dice, the brain will tend to think that higher=better, but with percentiles the tendency is to think "lower than"=better.

hehe... Personally, I find all roll-low systems to be counter-intuitive, at least to me. That is, however, the key bit -- "to me". You apparently find it otherwise, but your statements on it make it sound as if that is the norm, when it is more of a personal thing than anything else.

Now, regarding anti-d20 sentiments, I have to agree that telling people to "trade in old D20 products" (note it wasn't "old gaming products") to get HARP sounds like a SPECIFIC insinuation that HARP will render D20 obsolete. Its a specific attack of the standard "fantasy heartbreaker" variety. That's pretty unfortunate.

Well....... we can always hope that HARP will render d20 obsolete, can't we?

If you are interested, here is the link to the announcement about the trade-in deal that I made on these forums (in the publisher forums part to be exact) -- http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90499 --back when we first started the deal.

If you read it, you will note that there is not a d20 bash in the whole post (well, unless you consider my saying that your good books will belittle your bad books as a bash... hehe). As for why we selected d20, there are several reasons.

First off, it is the largest market share, and thus the market to target for such an ad. It would have been much less effective if we said send in your Torg stuff, now wouldn't it?

Secondly, we limited it to only products with the d20 logo, excluding all OGL-only products. This limits the number of products to a little more than 1600 possible product trade-ins, but by limiting it to only those with the logo, we also provide a solid line against what are and are not acceptable trade-in products.

Finally, read what I posted in that thread. I specifically state to send us things you do not like and/or no longer have a use for. I also state that out of 1600+ products (I actually went through and counted - sort of - I used a spread sheet), that there is a good chance that some of them are bad, and we encourage folks to send us what they think is bad.

The whole purpose of the trade-in deal is to get folks to try HARP, and to give them the chance to do so by getting rid of some unwanted stuff. (Folks have actually sent us things that I consider to be pretty decent - Green Ronin, kenzar & Co, etc... - I was amazed heheh)

We feel that if we can folks to try HARP, that they will like it, because we have every confidence that HARP is a very good game. That simple. We think that if you actually try it, that you will like it, and perhaps send a little bit more business our way because of it. If we take care of our customers, they will take care of us!

 

[Nisarg]

well, I'm sorry, but as soon as Tim can come on here and explain exactly why he targeted D20 for this "very special offer" then I might apologize. The fact is that in my post above I was explaining why it could not be as was earlier insinuated, that it was just a matter of customer service. Unless of course you really believe that the ONLY rpg books that a gamer would ever dislike or want to give away ever are D20 books, in which case you're part of the problem.

Nisarg

 

[Rasyr]

I'm actually suprised that, with a name like HARP, it's a fantasy game and not a multi-genre game. Especially considering ICE's long list of sci-fi games and the current trend with campaign settings mixing magic and tech.

Is there a Space HARP in the mix?

Due out in 2005....

 

[Mean DM]

The ONLY reason for specifying D20 was because D20 is the top dog and HARP wanted to take a cheap shot.

Your right! Poor D20. ICE is stealing your customer base. Run for the hills!!!!!

In all seriousness, this marketing tack happens all the time. Telephone companies do it. Car companies do it. ICE is just capitalizing on the glut of d20 books. It is a fair, calculated, and smart business move IMHO. DnD is the big boy on the block, and by virtue of this will be the target of many jibes and remarks. I think they can handle it.

 

[Rasyr]

Your right! Poor D20. ICE is stealing your customer base. Run for the hills!!!!!

ROFLMAO!!!
Would now be a good time to say, "All your base belong to us!"?

In all seriousness, this marketing tack happens all the time. Telephone companies do it. Car companies do it. ICE is just capitalizing on the glut of d20 books. It is a fair, calculated, and smart business move IMHO. DnD is the big boy on the block, and by virtue of this will be the target of many jibes and remarks. I think they can handle it.

And if you read what I posted elsewhere on these forums (see the link in my post above), that I do not make any real jibes or remarks about d20 other than saying that with such a large number of products, there is a good chance that a good number of them will not be good, or at least good in the eyes of the person who purchased it.

Now, I did not come up with the trade-in idea, but I do think it is a good one, because it does give the opportunity to get rid of something that you purchased and decided that you did not want later on in exchange for a discount on what I do think is a very good game (then again, I am biased towards it hehe).

Nisarg - having the trade-in be for other products we sell kinda defeats the purpose of trying to increase our customer base, now doesn't it?

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

well, I'm sorry, but as soon as Tim can come on here and explain exactly why he targeted D20 for this "very special offer" then I might apologize. The fact is that in my post above I was explaining why it could not be as was earlier insinuated, that it was just a matter of customer service. Unless of course you really believe that the ONLY rpg books that a gamer would ever dislike or want to give away ever are D20 books, in which case you're part of the problem.

Nisarg

Actually what I said was at this time. Yes, at this time, what you hear most often is lamentaiton about bad d20 products causing hardships to get rid of, do some reading on the boards and you will see this as the case as well. Reading other boards I rarely see anyone lambast other companies as having crappy product much right now, epsecially since they are in the minority, in general, to the huge number of d20 gamers out there and the even larger (it seems sometimes) number of d20 publishers. Have you called and asked ice if they would accept another game's product in exchange? If you haven't then you really can't speak in absolutes as you have been doing much of your posts here, including your comment about %. Over the last 10 years of gaming I have had just as many dms call for rolling 51-00 on a 50% as calling for a 1-49, sorry to uphold your absolute there. I have no problem in thinking of % high or low because, when I was in math, we used *both* schemes for different solution, especially in logic classes.

*edit* yes, Tim has clarified that it is only d20 products, but my point still stands, until you get official word don't assume you know the absolute truth.

 

[Nisarg]

Your right! Poor D20. ICE is stealing your customer base. Run for the hills!!!!!

In all seriousness, this marketing tack happens all the time. Telephone companies do it. Car companies do it. ICE is just capitalizing on the glut of d20 books. It is a fair, calculated, and smart business move IMHO. DnD is the big boy on the block, and by virtue of this will be the target of many jibes and remarks. I think they can handle it.

Is it fair business practices? Absolutely, 100%. HARP or any other company is entitled to do this kind of thing.

Is it "smart" business? I'm not too sure about that. In a market where you have a very specialized subculture, like there is in roleplaying, you'll usually be better off trying to create a specialized niche than trying to go after the top dog. D20 is the 900lb. gorilla. Nothing will even come closet to matching it.
The term has been created, "fantasy heartbreaker" to refer to those fantasy RPGs that sell themselves as "better than D&D", who usually sell their rules by pointing out how they are different than D&D, their setting by how its more interesting than D&D, etc. etc. In other words, they have no virtues of their own, only in comparison to D&D, and only in their creator's very subjective mind of what is "better". There has not been a wildly successful "fantasy heartbreaker" in at least 15 years. In particularly, the advent of D20 makes fantasy heartbreakers seem even sadder than before, as there's no longer any reason to do anything like "D&D but different" outside of the OGL.

HARP could probably draw itself away from the idea of the "fantasy heartbreaker", its not just a blatant copy of D20 or anything of that sort; but how it will be seen will depend on how ICE chooses to market it. If they market it as "better than D&D", what they'll probably find is that the D20 fans will say "no it isn't" and the non-d20 fans will say "who cares?". Their best bet is to go with "very different from D&D". Find a way to explain how HARP is not at all like D20, is not meant to displace or replace it, has virtues on its own basis without needing to be compared to D20.

That's the spiritual Mt.Everest facing HARP; the question "What can you do differently than D&D with it?" And answering that it handles skills differently, or it handles magic differently or something like that isn't going to cut it. If it wants to have success, it has to explain how it is doing something new and innovative gaming, filling a niche that neither D20 nor other popular RPGs do not already occupy.

Nisarg

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Is it fair business practices? Absolutely, 100%. HARP or any other company is entitled to do this kind of thing.

Is it "smart" business? I'm not too sure about that. In a market where you have a very specialized subculture, like there is in roleplaying, you'll usually be better off trying to create a specialized niche than trying to go after the top dog. D20 is the 900lb. gorilla. Nothing will even come closet to matching it.
The term has been created, "fantasy heartbreaker" to refer to those fantasy RPGs that sell themselves as "better than D&D", who usually sell their rules by pointing out how they are different than D&D, their setting by how its more interesting than D&D, etc. etc. In other words, they have no virtues of their own, only in comparison to D&D, and only in their creator's very subjective mind of what is "better". There has not been a wildly successful "fantasy heartbreaker" in at least 15 years. In particularly, the advent of D20 makes fantasy heartbreakers seem even sadder than before, as there's no longer any reason to do anything like "D&D but different" outside of the OGL.

HARP could probably draw itself away from the idea of the "fantasy heartbreaker", its not just a blatant copy of D20 or anything of that sort; but how it will be seen will depend on how ICE chooses to market it. If they market it as "better than D&D", what they'll probably find is that the D20 fans will say "no it isn't" and the non-d20 fans will say "who cares?". Their best bet is to go with "very different from D&D". Find a way to explain how HARP is not at all like D20, is not meant to displace or replace it, has virtues on its own basis without needing to be compared to D20.

That's the spiritual Mt.Everest facing HARP; the question "What can you do differently than D&D with it?" And answering that it handles skills differently, or it handles magic differently or something like that isn't going to cut it. If it wants to have success, it has to explain how it is doing something new and innovative gaming, filling a niche that neither D20 nor other popular RPGs do not already occupy.

Nisarg

Actually that's not the case. It does not have to compare itself to d20/dnd or any other system at all, sorry but dnd is not god. All it has to do, and what it *has* done, is turn heads enough to get a small % of people looking at it. Then that small % makes up its mind and begins to talk about it, take it to gaming sessions, and play it at cons. The small % turns into a larger % and there you are. White Wolf never compared itself to dnd and yet it soared. You can say it filled a niche but it didn't, there were already successful games out that did what it did. You had CoC, nephilim, chill, nocturna, whatever the paladium horror game was. These were powerful systems that white wolf never compared itself to but had lots of fan base at the time. So your idea that everything has to compare itself to dnd by saying what it does differently is just as ludicrous as the idea that everyone thinks of %dice the exact same way.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

also where is this officialy stated slogan of "better than d20" that you keep throwing around people? I have spent the last couple hours reading sites and stuff and I have not seen a single case of official words saying "better than d20" if I am missing it then could someone pelase point it out? Oh, btw, gamers or non-official represenatives do not count. Also, someone saying "in my opinion it's a great game, and i like it better than d20" doesn't count either, that's an opinion.

 

[Mean DM]

That's the spiritual Mt.Everest facing HARP; the question "What can you do differently than D&D with it?" And answering that it handles skills differently, or it handles magic differently or something like that isn't going to cut it. If it wants to have success, it has to explain how it is doing something new and innovative gaming, filling a niche that neither D20 nor other popular RPGs do not already occupy.

Agreed, and well said!