HARP vs D&D

[trancejeremy]

True, d20 gamers are perhaps a bit touchy, but they have to put up with a lot of flak from non-d20 gamers, including the Harp people. I mean, they're the ones that are offering a deal where you trade in d20 books for Harp. Gee, no d20 bashing there or anything...

Or, why is the HARP guy pushing Harp on a site devoted to d20?

That stuff gets old after awhile.

 

[Crothian]

True, d20 gamers are perhaps a bit touchy, but they have to put up with a lot of flak from non-d20 gamers, including the Harp people. I mean, they're the ones that are offering a deal where you trade in d20 books for Harp. Gee, no d20 bashing there or anything...

Or, why is the HARP guy pushing Harp on a site devoted to d20?

That stuff gets old after awhile.

Ya it does get old. But he hasn't done anything you say he has.

How is offereing a discount by sending in d20 books you aren't going to use d20 bashing? I have tons of d20 books I'm never going to use and that I don't want, that doesn't mean I hate or bash the system. Its nice that there is someone out there willing to give me a return for it.

He is not pushing his stuff on a d20 site either. Someone else started the thread and had questions. I'm thankful he came over here and answered the questions. He's pretty damn qualified since he wrote the book.

 

[Steel_Wind]

ps. 3.0E referred to as Rolemaster lite? Thats funny .. and not that far-fetched (I've played Rolemaster on and off since '91, mostly off)

Actually, I think it's exactly right. I played RM since before there WAS an RM, beginning with Arm's Law in 82 through to RMSS ca 2001 (Which I did not like. RM 2ed was a better game. RMSS char creation was so complicated it was broken).

Nearly 20 years. That's a LONG TIME with Rolemaster. It worked and it worked well for our gaming group. The awkwardness that many complain about with RM goes never happened as the entire group knew the game rules so well. We could make combat in RM fly almost as fast as it does in D&D 3.5.

Anyways, the point over 3.0 being RM lite was due to Monte Cook, who cut his teeth in game rule design at ICE. Monte Cook's fingerprints are all over D&D's rule design and there are a lot of RM mechanics and a uniformity of approach to rules and mechanics that were missing from D&D in previous versions. Similarly with increased skill costs in cross-class skills. That's pure RM Lite at work in 3/3.5.

D&D 3/3.5 is much, much better for the RM lite elements which have been added to it - so much so that after nearly 20 years with RM, our entire gaming circle left ICE to come back to D&D.

And OGL had a lot to do with that too. Dis it if you like - but OGL has far more plusses than minuses to me.

Good luck with Harp Tim. We may try it in a while, but for now, the group is still exploring D&D. It will take us a while to get bored of it yet.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

True, d20 gamers are perhaps a bit touchy, but they have to put up with a lot of flak from non-d20 gamers, including the Harp people. I mean, they're the ones that are offering a deal where you trade in d20 books for Harp. Gee, no d20 bashing there or anything...

Or, why is the HARP guy pushing Harp on a site devoted to d20?

That stuff gets old after awhile.

Hmm...

1) This is a site where gamers get together. If you really think it should be only d20 you need to maybe speak to someone, because I see a lot of people talking bout a lot of different games. Maybe that kinda of attitude is why nond20 gamers harp on d20 gamers, because of the elitism that sometimes seems so prevailent (not saying you are guilty of this, just pointing out one reply to your comment).

2) I haven't seen anyone *pushing* harp. I have seen Tim defend it when attacked and explain his point of view, in a *general RPG* thread. He has not once said d20 is bad and has pointedly said he tries not to compare unless he is forced to and I have seen that.

3) Considering d20 has been pushed as *better* than any other rpg game out there by numerous publishers and gamers does it really surprise you that there is fallout from that?

4) You complain about flak from non d20 players, I personally don't evne know any IRL so that can't be terribly hard on you. It is true that die hard fans of any series of anything are usually a vocal minority and pretty zealotacious (is that a word?). The entire time this site has been around (and this site is relatively civil) I have seen posting after posting of hate towards wod. So your comment is kind of the pot talking to the kettle.

5) They are offering a trade in...um big deal? Have you tried unloading *half* your d20 products. No one will buy them except by the bulk at used book stores. A lot of us have made the mistake of getting a d20 book and being disapointed in it's quality and I think that is what Tim and ICE are responding to. It is not rumor or fantasy that d20 products run the entire spectrum of stellar to stinker. There are a lot of companies out there that will trade in their own stuff for a discount (because they can turn around and sell them in thier overstock stores) but there are very few who will take another publisher's work in exchange for discounts, considering they get absolutely *nothing* out of that trade. Most of the stuff being traded in is crap to begin with so they are in the same boat as the trader, except they are just sucking it up marking it off in an effort to show how good natured they are about crap.

6) I am in no way bashing d20, which I love, but instead a vocal minority of gamers of said system. I am also not beautifying any other system but instead showing that there are always two sides to the story. My positions have nothing to with ICE or D20 and are my own. If you feel they are BS talk to me about them.

 

[Acid_crash]

Is this kind of ridiculous, unfounded statement really necessary? Are ad hominems supposed to sell me on HARP? I don't get it.

I don't know if he was trying to sell HARP or more like just stating the general point that the majority of d20 gamers do feel superior towards other products and the majority are unwilling to give other games a fair shot.

 

[Nisarg]

First, I wasn't aware that Tim had made a point of rejecting DRM-Pdfs. Kudos to him for that, its an example of a good business idea and attention to his customer's concerns.

Also, I will second what someone else said on here, regarding the magic system being the best part of Harp. It is quite well done.

Now, why do I say percentage dice are intuitively "roll low"? Its because whenever we deal with percentages, in mathematics, if we are told there is a "50% chance" of something happening, and our brains tend to imagine that in terms of 1-50=success, 51-100=failure. To have to roll high with percentiles is one of the few times where roll-high is counter-intuitive. With almost any other dice, the brain will tend to think that higher=better, but with percentiles the tendency is to think "lower than"=better.

Now, regarding anti-d20 sentiments, I have to agree that telling people to "trade in old D20 products" (note it wasn't "old gaming products") to get HARP sounds like a SPECIFIC insinuation that HARP will render D20 obsolete. Its a specific attack of the standard "fantasy heartbreaker" variety. That's pretty unfortunate.

Nisarg

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Now, regarding anti-d20 sentiments, I have to agree that telling people to "trade in old D20 products" (note it wasn't "old gaming products") to get HARP sounds like a SPECIFIC insinuation that HARP will render D20 obsolete. Its a specific attack of the standard "fantasy heartbreaker" variety. That's pretty unfortunate.

Nisarg

My sentiments on this is that d20 is one of the few systems where you hear the outcry "Gads, what an influx of crappy product" everywhere you go. I like the ogl but that is one drawback of it. A good example, did anyone pick diomi (i think the name was), the black d20 book at the startof all this that did away with elves. It was like 20 bucks and the artwork looked like it was done by a 2 year old and mainly cut and paste? That is the reason why I don't see what ICE is doing as being anti d20, it's just realistic. There is a lot of d20 crap out there that people have wasted their money on. In relaiton, the ammount of crap from smaller game systems which do quality control is much less of a widespread issue. I still don't see it as dumping on d20, it's offering and avenue that a lot of people (HARP interested people especially) have been lamenting. If you read that your fan base has a lot of crappy ogl/d20 stuff that they can't get rid of, it's just good business to offer them a deal if you feel you cna do it without costing you too much money and causing good pr with your fan base. I didn't even know about the trade in thing till i read it in this thread, so it can't be terribly widespread and hince lessens its impact as an attack.

 

[Nisarg]

My sentiments on this is that d20 is one of the few systems where you hear the outcry "Gads, what an influx of crappy product" everywhere you go. I like the ogl but that is one drawback of it. A good example, did anyone pick diomi (i think the name was), the black d20 book at the startof all this that did away with elves. It was like 20 bucks and the artwork looked like it was done by a 2 year old and mainly cut and paste? That is the reason why I don't see what ICE is doing as being anti d20, it's just realistic. There is a lot of d20 crap out there that people have wasted their money on. In relaiton, the ammount of crap from smaller game systems which do quality control is much less of a widespread issue. I still don't see it as dumping on d20, it's offering and avenue that a lot of people (HARP interested people especially) have been lamenting. If you read that your fan base has a lot of crappy ogl/d20 stuff that they can't get rid of, it's just good business to offer them a deal if you feel you cna do it without costing you too much money and causing good pr with your fan base. I didn't even know about the trade in thing till i read it in this thread, so it can't be terribly widespread and hince lessens its impact as an attack.

No, that just means you haven't heard that much about HARP until now and it lessens HARP's impact as a major player in the industry.

There are crappy products done by every company for every game, there are also lots of games that people buy and enjoy for a few years and then come to dislike and have no further use for. If this was about "helping customers" they would have said "trade in old RPG books for new". Hell, they could have said "trade in your old rolemaster/ICE books for HARP", that would have at least made more sense. The ONLY reason for specifying D20 was because D20 is the top dog and HARP wanted to take a cheap shot.

Nisarg

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

...The ONLY reason for specifying D20 was because D20 is the top dog and HARP wanted to take a cheap shot.

Nisarg

That is speculation and comes close to a personal attack on them, which is the very thing you are accusing them of, which are you? the pot or the kettle? If you wish to say that you feel they are doing it as an attack, that is one thing, but you have consistently taken the tact of knowing exactly what they are thinking and speaking as though straight from the lips of god to your's, and that is just as bad as any percieved insult done by them. If that is your feeling, ok, it is obviously the only one you can come to at this time, for whatever reason (which may or may not be valid). I was just pointing out there are a lot of wyas to take it, but since you seem to know their mind personally I must bow out, for I was only speaking of the way it might be or might not be.

Sorry for the snarkiness, but your own snarkiness is becomming hard to ignore

 

[Nisarg]

well, I'm sorry, but as soon as Tim can come on here and explain exactly why he targeted D20 for this "very special offer" then I might apologize. The fact is that in my post above I was explaining why it could not be as was earlier insinuated, that it was just a matter of customer service. Unless of course you really believe that the ONLY rpg books that a gamer would ever dislike or want to give away ever are D20 books, in which case you're part of the problem.

Nisarg