Has any RPG ever done grappling well? At all?

[Ariosto]

Chaosium's "big gold book" of Basic Role Playing seems a likely candidate.

The original RuneQuest had hit locations, so broken limbs were easy to address directly.

Elric! substituted variable armor protection and a Major Wound Table, probably less satisfactory. However, it included the Wrestle skill as well as the following "spot rules for combat":

- Disarming an Opponent
- Drowning, Suffocation
- Knock-Back Attack
- Knockout Attack
- Stun
- Tight Position
- Weapon Length (Closing)

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

I agree with this. grappling needs to be balance to equivalent outcomes as regular melee options and magic/skill options.

At one of the martial arts camps I went to, we had a session with an expert at ground fighting. At its basics, I learned how to simply hold you down, so you can't get up, and how to maneuver myself while prone, so I was at reduced risk AND had the ability to trip and attack you from my back.

the hard styles of martial arts (kicking and punching) are easy to model the same as attacking with weapons.

The fuzzy stuff are the effects of the soft styles.
I can pin/immobilize/hold you.
I can injure you in a way that disables a limb (penalty to-hit?)
I can trip you (rules for that)
I can keep fighting while prone (being prone has no/little effect)
I can knock somebody out (sleep spell)

Just to name a few.

Historically, real fighters also know how to grapple. Boys are always wrestling. Men wrestle for sport. And all fights almost always end up on the ground. So medieval swordsman, probably knew more about grappling somebody than using a sword (an exageration, perhaps variable by level)

I think that one of the most cathartic experiences in my life was the day I lost control of my car and plowed into an entire crowd of people in karate pajamas outside of a gymnasium.

LOL...hadouken you're way out of THAT, Ralph Macchio.

 

[frankthedm]

Personally, I think Fantasy Craft hit it decently. Full round opposed Athletics check, with the victor getting to do something from a list of actions.

...Of course, if you're in a grapple the only thing you can do other then a grapple check are free actions.

Thanks for showing why i think FC's grappling is even worse than 3E's. Going from major shutdown, to complete shutdown.

It's strong, but not the be all and end all. It's a good argument for not dumping strength or ignoring the Athletics skill for non-melee fighters though.

And I say it is yet another skill drain on FC characters to use skills in places where BAB and Saves ought to be.

 

[Krensky]

Thanks for showing why i think FC's grappling is even worse than 3E's. Going from major shutdown, to complete shutdown. And I say it is yet another skill drain on FC characters to use skills in places where BAB and Saves ought to be.

It's hardly a complete shut down. Frankly, I feel there's for more meaningful options then in 3.0. It also shuts down all participants equally, while making them all flat-footed. There's a number of ways to get free actions of consequence. Quick Draw, Fencing or Flail Basics, Contempt, Misdirection Mastery, Tiger Noble all provide free actions directly usable in a grapple. For a caster, theres a few other options. Command I, the Power Word spells, or any standard action spell with Spell Conversion: Time.

There are a few other number of others, but those are the directly applicable ones for PCs, the others require some creativity. For NPCs, well, Swift Attack on a grappling oriented NPC is brutal, and all the aforementioned PC tricks are available to NPCs too.

One or two points into Athletics, and to be honest I find most of my players take more ranks in it primarily for Push Limit checks, and a 12 or 14 in Strength covers a lot of 'casual' grappling. Grappling against something that has it as it's schtick is harder, but it should be.

But you're welcome to your opinion. The grapple mechanics work awesomely for me and my table.

 

[Argyle King]

That would make it vastly superior to the use of swords, staffs, and bows, neither of which allow you to chop off limbs or knock someone out.

I'd be wary of a grappliing system which allowed the player to be far more effective than a master swordsman is. If you allow grapplers to break limbs and choke people out, you need to allow swordsmen to chop off arms or bowmen to snipe people in the eye.

There are systems which allow weapons to do that.

 

[Argyle King]

"Unified core mechanic" and "ease of use" are not synonymous, especially when you start talking about the interactions of modular add-ons.

Yes, if you strip GURPS down to its bare basics, combat isn't too bad. It is by no means the smoothest around, but neither is it the worst. But, at least in my personal experience, once you add bells and whistles (like, say, detailed grappling), the complexity and clumsiness ramp up very quickly. YMMV.

I have a very simple rule at my table - if your character is going to use a particular option or rule a lot and you have trouble remembering how it works, write it down.

I don't find that to be any different than expecting a player in a D&D 4E game to know what one of their powers do.

As for 'clumsiness,' I actually find it to be fairly intuitive. Most of the locks and holds say exactly what they do in their descriptions.

 

[Dausuul]

Historically, real fighters also know how to grapple. Boys are always wrestling. Men wrestle for sport. And all fights almost always end up on the ground. So medieval swordsman, probably knew more about grappling somebody than using a sword (an exageration, perhaps variable by level)

If you watch people training with techniques from medieval combat manuals, it's not at all like the arm's-length, ting-ting-ting stuff you see in movies. In real life, when the other guy is wearing full plate, you can't stab him through the heart or slash open his belly--your sword will just bounce off. You have to get your blade through one of the gaps in the armor, and the armor is designed to make those gaps as small and hard to reach as possible.

Under these circumstances, the difference between "grappling" and "using a sword" is pretty dang small. Getting the other guy on the ground makes it much, much easier to drive a sword or dagger into his eyeslit. Wrestling moves were very much a part of the knight's repertoire.

 

[Leatherhead]

That would make it vastly superior to the use of swords, staffs, and bows, neither of which allow you to chop off limbs or knock someone out.

I'd be wary of a grappliing system which allowed the player to be far more effective than a master swordsman is. If you allow grapplers to break limbs and choke people out, you need to allow swordsmen to chop off arms or bowmen to snipe people in the eye.

OK, this post has re-inspired me to delve deeper into "The Tyranny of the Sword" problem again. I got a bit sidetracked by moving, and this is mostly just a tag so I can find the quote later.

 

[KJSEvans]

HackMaster has the answers you seek.

There are likely to be further elaborations when the PHB hits the shelves, but in HackJournal #33 (which you can buy for a cool $2.95), they elaborate on rules for strikes, overbearing, bull rushes, tackles, tosses/take downs, grabs, holds, break holds, lift/lift and toss, scramble for weapons, shield bashes, and for taking on multiple opponents.

The system is good. The rules are comprehensive, and this is just the start.

 

[avin]

In my experience even advanced grapple rules in GURPS are easier than D&D3E rules.

Another vote for GURPS as a system that handle grapple very well.