Has complexity every worked for you as a DM?

All my campaigns have been complex. Some of my players like it, some don't like it as much. But, all my players keep coming back for more, so I guess it can't be all bad.

I felt it was ironic that there was a threat on this. Two of my players have taken to calling me Maximus Complexicus over the past year or two (please forgive them their Latin).

Dave
 

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At creation time, my characters seldom have complex motivations. They get better defined as time pass.

As a DM, though, the plot starts complex and gets continuously more intricate and tangled and hard to understand, even for me, who knows everything about it. I have to use flowcharts and a large number of draft sheets. The other players, and their characters, miss about 90% of what's going on. :)

And you know what? When I'm a player and someone else is a GM, it's the exact same thing.
 

It seems that this thread is more along the lines of "How does one create a complex plot?" or that is what rycanda is trying to get at.

I think the first aspect is to start from the top and work down. For me, at least, it is easier to start out with whatever over-arching scheme you have. What is the BBEG trying to accomplish? That, right there is the start of it. From there, what allies does he have? What are his centers of power? What does he have each ally trying to accomplish? Do these allies know of each other or do they sometimes work against each others' plans? Create the hierarchy of the bad guys and what they are doing.

After that, you have to create the hierarchy of the good guys. They usually have their own plans that are seperate from the bad guys (trying to recover this artifact or that one) and chances are that the good plans intertwine with the bad ones at some places. For me, these are the places to introduce the PCs to the bad plans and over-arching plot. Of course they don't realize this, but you have to leave them clues and let them go on. Here is where you introduce them to the overall plot.

A technique I use here and one someone else on the boards mentioned once was that I make use of some of my work space. We have some nice big dry erase boards and when I have to get an overall plot down with its main players and motives, I make use of them. Usually I have an idea about the BBEG and work from there. I'll put up the bad guy and his goal (which usually revolves around some item or place) and I'll draw a line. On that line I'll draw the connection which usually amounts to why the bad guy wants it and what he wants to do with it (this is usually left a few words but enough to jog my memory). After that, I put up those allies, power centers, and items that all wrap into the fray.

One of my other points in a complex plot is *not* to railroad. Thats what they did in Final Fantasy VII and a lot of other RPGs and while I still loved them, that isn't what a true RPG campaign is. The PCs have to make their own options and choose which leads they follow. What helps make them complex is that the PCs often explore areas of the campaign you had never considered. They'll go places you hadn't either expected or even planned for, making you add more layers or intrigue.

The other important part of any campaign is not to force anything (often times this applies later in a campaign when characters and plots have been well-laid). If it doesn't fit, then it doesn't fit. Trying to force a particular plot-twist or such is to make it unbelievable. If there isn't a good reason for a good guy to do something evil, then he wouldn't do it. That isn't to say you can't create some dirty secret from his past that might force him to do it, but sometimes something isn't there.

Something else I try to do is leave plot of plot hooks. Sometimes I'll just leave something without any idea of what I want to use it for. I keep a list of these details and items so that I can come back to them later and use them whenever something later comes up. This helps add depth to a game and add that planning aspect of "complexity" that sometimes isn't planned for at all.

This is of course just the beginning. I get the general overall hierarchy, find where the PC's fit into the situation, and then start there with the details. I'll leave the rest for later, only filling in that area and whatever connections filter into that area on my large graph. I have a notebook and one section is just for what I have labelled "Brainfart Ideas", namely ideas I either yoink or come up with that strike me as interesting and for later use. This gives me a list of notions/ideas to pull from. It is one of the most helpful things I have.

Hopefully this might help some. Heck, it might not even be what you want but oh well...I was bored. :p
 


The Amazing Dingo said:
Create the hierarchy of the bad guys and what they are doing.

After that, you have to create the hierarchy of the good guys. They usually have their own plans that are seperate from the bad guys (trying to recover this artifact or that one) and chances are that the good plans intertwine with the bad ones at some places.

This is how I do it. If all your bad guys want the same thing (let's say "bring about the end of the world") and all our good guys want the same thing ("stop the ending of the world") then your plots are going to be simple ("help stop the bad guys from ending the world").

But if many of your bad guys have different desires and means of achieving them and the same applies to your good guys and if you mix in a lot of "neutral guys" whose desires don't line up with the others, then your complexity will work its way into the campaign all by itself. So long as you are keeping some of those wheels moving at all times.

I could write out a very long and detailed example here, except I already did it. Read my Story Hour (link in sig). ;)
 

Complexity is good. I like adventures where you have to think, and campaigns where at the end, you look back and wonder how you ever thought things could be that simple.

My biggest problem as a DM is the opposite. Too often, the players think 'Hmm...it can't be this simple' and then proceed to complicate something that was completely straightforward.
 

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
My biggest problem as a DM is the opposite. Too often, the players think 'Hmm...it can't be this simple' and then proceed to complicate something that was completely straightforward.

I'm guilty of this frequently as a player. But don't you prefer it to the opposite?
 

Rel said:
I'm guilty of this frequently as a player. But don't you prefer it to the opposite?

Definitely. I think. Except that, if they are missing something complicated, I can nudge them along -- call for a knowledge(X) check, have a prisioner blurt something out, etc. A lttle deus ex goes a long way.

If they are chasing a red herring, I either have to let it run its course, or flat-out tell them they're on the wrong track.
 

Start simple, end complex.

That's how I tend to run my campaigns :)

The first few adventures are merely there to introduce the world, shake out the characters and their place in it, and figure out how "regular things" work and fit.

But then the complexity arises. Players start seeing certain NPCs over and over, both those who aid the group and those who oppose it. Statements made seemingly off-the-cuff appear to have greater meaning. Rumours that seemed innocuous before take on importance. And that nice-but-hardly-special magic item might prove to be much more than it actually seemed at first.

Some "obvious problems" or "known conspiracies" turn out just to be paranoia on the part of the players; other groupings become incredibly nasty. Recurring villains, references to books or lost spells, a mark seen over and over at the site of certain types of crimes weave into a bigger story.

Oh yes, I love complexity in my games :) So do my players :)
 

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
Definitely. I think. Except that, if they are missing something complicated, I can nudge them along -- call for a knowledge(X) check, have a prisioner blurt something out, etc. A lttle deus ex goes a long way.

If they are chasing a red herring, I either have to let it run its course, or flat-out tell them they're on the wrong track.

...or take their idea and run with it.

Historically, I've used your concept of "it is what it is and they will have to blunder around until they figure out they're wrong or I'll just tell them and save us all a lot of time." But of late I've decided that some of the best plot arcs that have come out of my games have been because I took a crazy idea the PC's had and just ran with it.

I don't consider this "cheating" either for or against the players (depending on whether their idea favors the PC's or is a nasty plot against them). After all, there are several of them and only one of me. So sometimes I tap their creativity as a resource for the game.

None of which is to say that they can never be wrong. But once in a while they erroneously adopt a plot that is so dastardly that I can't resist stealing it. ;)
 

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