Has complexity every worked for you as a DM?

[Ravilah]

Like most everyone here, I like to start simple and then get complex. One of my most consistant players (he's been in 5-6 of my campaigns) thrives on plot complexity, and would be disconsolate without it.

This, however, translates to bad news when he tries to be the DM. In his first campaign, he threw at us a world-spanning plague, political uproar, involvement with Bahamut, and the sudden removal of all our allies (we were unjustly branded criminals). This sounds fun until you realize that we were all level ONE, and that all of this was introduced in the first two sessions.

We quit after session three.

 

[ashockney]

The great aha moment!

I love the great aha moment! This complexity makes it really fun to plot out as DM. This is interweaved much as others have described above. I like to have four to six major campaign plotlines that are the driving force behind the entire campaign. We interweave these in very simple and obvious ways in the campaign from the very start, into the background, the plot, the villians, and the PC backgrounds. For example, the moon is blood red. What does it mean, what caused it, how does it relate to the party...that will all be uncovered. The key is to not get too attached to your own ideas. I'm never surprised by what the players find interesting and chase, chase, chase in the sub-plots!

A recent example for me came from the most recent campaign I ran, based entirely on elves (all the PC's were required to be elves) set in the FR. The conclusion of the campaign resulted in the discovery that a recent rebellion of rebel houses, was comprised of demon-blooded elves, and low and behold...so is a member of the party! The fallout that resulted was tremendous fun.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Yes. I ran a campaign where the schtick was the PLAYERS (not the PCs - the PLAYERS) were attacked in this bizzare fight out of nowhere while at the gaming table - and as they ran and got into the elevator - it dropped out of control and ....blackout ... they found themselves in the game world - as PCs of their choice - 7th level Rolemaster.

They discovered they looked different - though vaguely similar to their player selves - and that they were confused with the Heroes of Legend - the "Elder Lords" of this world.

The complex crap: Over the course of 12 sessions or so, the players discovered that these ancient heroes of myth in the gameworld which had done these great deeds 2,000 years past were - in fact - the players. It was the past to the world - but the future to the players...

And so the Time Traveling twist began for another 35 sessions or so...as the players desperately sought knowledge of what they had done in the past so they would know what to do. And then of course - found themselves in the past.

It was massively complex in the paradoxes that threatened - but it was very cool. Best homebrew I ever ran by a country mile.

I used parts of ICE's Time Riders genre book for inspiration. Never mind the RM rules aspect of Time Riders - as a general resource for campaign and D20 DMs thinking of doing a Time Travel adventure - I really REALLY recommend this book.

 

[shilsen]

I like to have complexity in my games, but I also try to balance it by not making it more than the players/PCs can handle.

And I do love the "Aha!" moments. One of my most pleasurable DMing moments was for my first Eberron campaign (predating & overlapping with the current one in my sig), where the PCs had just made some interesting discoveries and were talking about it before going to bed. Eventually they did turn in, and then 30 seconds later (in real time), two of them sat up simultaneously and went, "Oh - crap!" as something fell into place. And then they mentioned it to the others, and discussed it, and started writing a letter to let someone know about it. And a couple minutes into the letter, someone else went, "Wait - remember the time when ...?" And another PC went, "Damn! Now that makes sense!" And they started rewriting the letter with the new realization. And then five minutes later, someone else went, "Oh my god! I just realized that...." They spent 45 minutes of real time just working through one thread after another, working all the way back to the first session of the campaign, and I just sat there without having to say a word, grinning from ear to ear (esp. when, once in a while, someone would stop, look at me, and go, "You bastard!" ). It was beautiful.

 

[Gothmog]

I've never run a campaign that didn't have intricate plot elements, from deceptions to double-dealings to multiple layers of surprises discovered at various points throughout the campaign.

AFAIAC, if I just wanted to roll dice, I'd play a board game. As a DM and player both, give me a plot, with mysteries to uncover and discoveries to make, any day of the week.

I agree with Mouseferatu- I love complex and deep-immersion games. Jusr rolling dice and hacking my way through a dungeon is rather dull- its fine for beer & pretzel games, or for a one-off, but I prefer my campaigns to have multiple layers of complexity the players unravel, trying to wrap their brains around whats going on.

A couple of examples:

The paladin in my homebrew campaign is part of an elite order of knights in his church, the Knights Veritas. Its considered a high distinction to be allowed to join the order, and once inside, he thought things would be all roses. Instead, he found that a dangerous game of espionage was being played within the church involving conflicting interpretations of prophecy and doctrine that the rest of the clergy was largely unaware of. He tends to be a little more liberal in his interpretation of doctrine, holding that the tenants of the church should benefit commoner and noble, while the conservative elements favor the nobles and status quo. He's nearly come to blows with another paladin over it, and knows of some not-so-nice thing each side has done to try and manipulate events to their advantage (I use an allegiances rather than alignment system).

Another example, in the same campaign, involves the activity of demons (IMC, this is any evil extraplanar creature) and why there are apparently inviolate rules concerning the abilty of gods and demons to interefere in the world. For example, gods are prohibited from ever setting foot on the world or manifesting avatars, and demons must be summoned or invited into the world. In addition, gods cannot be communed with directly, and planar travel is impossible. As the characters went on adventures, they began to uncover references and myths about prehistory, and realized something odd was going on, especially in regards to conflicting evidence concerning creation myths of humans being children of the gods. Plus, they have uncovered evidence of elder beings (basically Cthulhu mythos-like creatures) that don't seem to have any place in accepted cosmology. They also noticed the deeper they delved into the topic, the more some churches, madmen, and diabolists tried to warn them off the path, and/or kill them. They still haven't figured it out yet after 8 years (real time) of gaming, but they have some interesting theories, and in fact some of their discussion has fueled my creative fires as I incorporate or modify some of their ideas. Its fun to watch them get excited when some part of their theories prove to be right and their complete bewilderment when something new and unexpected pops up.

 

[The Grackle]

If you have a natural tendency to make complicated plots, like I do, it's real easy to overload and confuse your players. I had to learn to keep it in check. Now I start a game out pretty simple and let the players mess things up to their taste.

 

[William_2]

Cool question. And no, no success. Always blank looks and “Where is the scroll or villain that explains this to us?”, year after year. I think I am the same as a player, too. Not dim, just expecting clichés in gaming, I guess.

 

[jdrakeh]

Thematic complexity, yes. Mechanical complexity, not so much.

 

[S'mon]

I try to keep things as simple as possible at the ground level, and allow complexity to emerge in play. My world has been running 21 years real-time now, so I tend to see a lot of plot threads merge and intertwine to produce complex new structures. Eg it turned out recently that 3 major threads - the Mabden/Sword Ruler extra-planar invasion via Gates in the Chaos Wastes; the evil Cthulu-esque Pariah Gods plotting their return, and the Iron Ring slavers using plane-shifting rings to steal women from other worlds - were all inter-linked. These threads were initially developed independently, but naturally came together in a way I certainly had not initially foreseen - it turns out that the Pariahs had created the Iron Ring plane-shift rings to weaken the walls between worlds and thus enable the Mabden invasion.

 

[Ry]

I like to have complexity in my games, but I also try to balance it by not making it more than the players/PCs can handle.

And I do love the "Aha!" moments. One of my most pleasurable DMing moments was for my first Eberron campaign (predating & overlapping with the current one in my sig), where the PCs had just made some interesting discoveries and were talking about it before going to bed. Eventually they did turn in, and then 30 seconds later (in real time), two of them sat up simultaneously and went, "Oh - crap!" as something fell into place. And then they mentioned it to the others, and discussed it, and started writing a letter to let someone know about it. And a couple minutes into the letter, someone else went, "Wait - remember the time when ...?" And another PC went, "Damn! Now that makes sense!" And they started rewriting the letter with the new realization. And then five minutes later, someone else went, "Oh my god! I just realized that...." They spent 45 minutes of real time just working through one thread after another, working all the way back to the first session of the campaign, and I just sat there without having to say a word, grinning from ear to ear (esp. when, once in a while, someone would stop, look at me, and go, "You bastard!" ). It was beautiful.

OK, this sounds too good to miss. Any chance of some more explanation?