• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D General Has D&D abandoned the "martial barbarian"?

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Well, and Islam and all the connected religions too. But in fantasy, there are certainly fantasy settings and stories where it isn't the case, but I'd hardly call it a "DnDism". You could say that DnDs specific framing of it was popularized through it's influence on later fantasy, though.
Fairly true!

But in D&D Arcane Magic is practically Neutral while Divine Magic is similarly Neutral. As both good and evil characters use both in abundance. There's no specific "All Priests are Good" or "All Wizards are Evil!"

Even the one setting where that kinda thing would've worked out pretty good decided to have Preservers and Templars just to keep it Neutral-Magic.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

MGibster

Legend
Well, that's a concept that comes straight from real life. There has always been a distinction between the miracles of saints, and unholy sorcery/witchcraft.
In Christendom maybe. But you'll note that in both the witch and the saint could heal.

And beliefs in the efficacy of magic are a bit more complex than this. Those who went to cunning men and women mostly didn't believe they were seeing a witch and certainly didn't think they were visiting a saint. The ideas of magic in 1100 CE was not the same as it was in 1450 CE.
 

Northern Phoenix

Adventurer
In Christendom maybe. But you'll note that in both the witch and the saint could heal.

And beliefs in the efficacy of magic are a bit more complex than this. Those who went to cunning men and women mostly didn't believe they were seeing a witch and certainly didn't think they were visiting a saint. The ideas of magic in 1100 CE was not the same as it was in 1450 CE.

Both the bible itself, and the koran and torah present the miraculous works of gods, angels and prophets, and warn against witchcraft and/or paganist ritual and recommend punishments for it. These ideas are very old indeed.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Both the bible itself, and the koran and torah present the miraculous works of gods, angels and prophets, and warn against witchcraft and/or paganist ritual and recommend punishments for it. These ideas are very old indeed.
Paganist Ritual is the telling bit, though. Because that's just "A Different Church's Magic". Meaning Divine magic can be good or evil.

Meanwhile Witchcraft is working with the Devil so that's just -another- "Different Church's Magic", too...
 

Northern Phoenix

Adventurer
Paganist Ritual is the telling bit, though. Because that's just "A Different Church's Magic". Meaning Divine magic can be good or evil.

Meanwhile Witchcraft is working with the Devil so that's just -another- "Different Church's Magic", too...

I don't think the idea was that evil witchcraft was somehow also divine in this concept. But my point here isn't to debate the finer points theology, but to explain that the history of distinction between the divine supernatural and the "other" supernatural, is ancient, and hardly a "DnDism"
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Morgrave's Miscellany has the Path of the Extreme Explorer, where you don't have rage so much as sheer adrenaline. The path also lets you make stuff out of bones and hide, giving yourself cold or fire resistance due to nonmagical insulation you make, and gaining climbing and swimming speeds.

Seas of Voldari has the Path of the Buccaneer, where you get climbing and swimming speeds, get bonuses with things like shoving and grappling, and gaining an extra reaction to attack someone who is within 5 feet and has disad on their attack rolls.

Sandy Peterson's Cthulhu Mythos has the Path of Delirium, which is slightly magical: you can release a frightening howl, you have a special table you can roll on if you're ever charmed, frightened, or confused, and can sense supernatural creatures and gates.

Arkadia has the Path of the Hero, where you can substitute Strength for Charisma for a lot of rolls, gain extra damage resistance, tell such a great tale about your own heroics that listeners become immune to being frightened, and gain bonus temp hp at times.

Odyssey of the Dragonlords has the Herculian Path, which is slightly magical: you gain bonuses for shoving and grappling because you can wrestle, can use Strength and add your rage bonus with bows and cause a thunderwave with it, your rage damage bonus increases each round you remain enraged, and create an earthquake (nonmagical) when you stomp your feet.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I'm sorry, but it's true : Conan, in the comics, has a red skin !
Which comics are those? Because if you're talking about anything from before the 90s (such as the comics that Marvel published in the 70s), you should know that the color artists of the time had a very limited color palette. It was hard to get any variations on skin tones without it looking really weird. (Source: my mother was a comic book color artist for several decades.)
 

le Redoutable

Ich bin El Glouglou :)
Which comics are those? Because if you're talking about anything from before the 90s (such as the comics that Marvel published in the 70s), you should know that the color artists of the time had a very limited color palette. It was hard to get any variations on skin tones without it looking really weird. (Source: my mother was a comic book color artist for several decades.)
John Buscema
( there's also " Red Nails " if I remember but can't tell the artist )
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
The ideas of magic in 1100 CE was not the same as it was in 1450 CE.
Both the bible itself, and the koran and torah present the miraculous works of gods, angels and prophets, and warn against witchcraft and/or paganist ritual and recommend punishments for it. These ideas are very old indeed.

You're both right. Influential Christian thinkers such as St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas had always considered magic to be demonic.

Many important changes took place from the High Medieval to the Early Modern periods that made the early modern witch trials possible:
  1. Learned magic was transmitted from the Islamic world during the High Medieval period. This made magic more intellectually respectable but also potentially more threatening in the eyes of churchmen.
  2. Demon summoning (known, confusingly, as necromancy) was being practised by some churchmen from the 12th century onwards.
  3. Satan became perceived as more powerful and dangerous.
  4. The idea of witchcraft as a conspiracy to destroy Christendom.
  5. The idea of the witch not merely as a practitioner of hostile magic but as a worshipper of Satan.
  6. The re-introduction of torture as part of the legal process in the 13th century.
  7. The early modern wars of religion.
  8. An increase in storms and bad harvests in the Early Modern period, which were blamed on witches.
The above is not intended as a complete list but merely to sketch out some of the many possible causes.

Michael Bailey, Magic and Superstition in Europe (2006):

Although magic was utterly evil and demonic, Christian authorities were always necessarily confident in the superiority of divine over demonic power and the ultimate triumph of Christianity over paganism. Such attitudes are evident in Burchard's [11th century bishop of Worms] writings. Even when demonic, superstitious, and pagan magic might produce real effects and work real harm, Burchard consistently treated these practices as the foolish errors of misguided and uneducated people tricked or deluded by demons rather than as serious threats to Christian society… Despite the numerous condemnations of supposedly persistent magical and superstitious practices over the centuries, as well as some relatively severe legislation, early medieval Christian society seems to have been generally confident regarding magic.​
Beginning around 1300, the level of authorities' concern over magical practices, especially harmful and supposedly demonic sorcery, seems to have risen significantly. In addition, accusations and trials for sorcery rose throughout the century.​

Richard Kieckhefer, Magic in the Middle Ages (1989):

One could summarize the history of medieval magic in capsule form by saying that at the popular level the tendency was to conceive magic as natural, while among the intellectuals there were three competing lines of thought: an assumption, developed in the early centuries of Christianity, that all magic involved at least an implicit reliance on demons; a grudging recognition, fostered especially by the influx of Arabic learning in the twelfth century, that much magic was in fact natural; and a fear, stimulated in the later Middle Ages by the very real exercise of necromancy, that magic involved an all too explicit invocation of demons even when it pretended to be innocent.​
The main users of necromancy [demon summoning] were members of a clerical underworld… Their dabbling in the occult helped to heighten anxiety about magic, and at least indirectly it helped to make people nervous about witchcraft.​

Catherine Rider, Magic and Religion in Medieval Europe (2012):

The turning point came in the early fourteenth century, when Pope John XXII (1316-34) was especially instrumental in classifying some forms of magic as heresy, particularly ritual magic (since invoking demons could be seen as a kind of devil-worship) and magic which involved misusing the sacraments (because misusing the Host or other holy objects could be seen as a rejection of accepted religion). This also had important implications for the ways in which these kinds of magic could be prosecuted. By classing them as heresy, John XXII brought them under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition, which had been set up in the thirteenth century to investigate heretics.​

Brian Levack, The Witch-hunt in Early Modern Europe 3e (2006):

The great European witch-hunt could not have taken place until the members of the ruling elites of European countries, especially those men who controlled the operation of the judicial machinery, subscribed to the various beliefs regarding the diabolical activities of witches that we have briefly described above. The mere belief in the reality of the magic that witches practised was not capable of sustaining the systematic prosecution and execution of large numbers of witches. The crime of maleficium, as allegedly practised by witches in early modern Europe, while clearly felonious, was not serious enough or practised widely enough to elicit the type of judicial campaign that was in fact mustered against them. In order for the intensive hunting of witches to take place, it was necessary for the ruling elite to believe that the crime was of the greatest magnitude and that it was being practised on a large scale and in a conspiratorial manner. They had to believe not only that individual witches were harming their neighbours by magical means but that large numbers of them were completely rejecting their Christian faith and undermining Christian civilization. They had to believe that magicians belonged to an organized, conspiratorial sect of devil-worshippers.​
 
Last edited:


Remove ads

Top