D&D General Has D&D abandoned the "martial barbarian"?

[TheAlkaizer]

It's Fighters in general. If you can use magic to explain why you don't need to look like John Cena to be a killer, well, then people prefer to look like Hit-Girl (Chloë Grace Moretz) or maybe Harley Quinn (Margot Robbie), or say a gnome barbarian to take a memeable fantasy example.

That's an interesting topic that's not limited only to TTRPGs. You see the same trend in other type of games. A majority of people trend towards attractive or good-looking characters. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a bit unsettling at first when you come from a different sub-culture.

Some examples:

• Less and less monstrous or weird characters in games like League of Legends, more and more humanoids, super-thin/muscular model-like anime characters.
• I started playing FF14 (the mmorpg) with some coworkers lately, and it's crazy how everyone is good-looking!
• In animes in general I noticed that most people are good-looking, and a few characters are characterized by the fact that they're not or just look different.

If you take a look at the art being posted on some D&D subreddits, there's a huge portion of them that are good-looking. But as you say, not many monstruous, or weird looking characters. I like playing these characters so it was a shock for me at first that people were like "ewww, no I would never play a dwarf". But it's fine too.

The reality is that tabletops being a game of imagination, when my friend describes his character, in his head it's this badass anime like attractive dude, and in my head it becomes this more rugged dark-fantasy picture. Different sets of references! It's never been an issue for me and I don't see how it could really be.

 

[Bill Zebub]

That's an interesting topic that's not limited only to TTRPGs. You see the same trend in other type of games. A majority of people trend towards attractive or good-looking characters. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a bit unsettling at first when you come from a different sub-culture.

Some examples:

• Less and less monstrous or weird characters in games like League of Legends, more and more humanoids, super-thin/muscular model-like anime characters.
• I started playing FF14 (the mmorpg) with some coworkers lately, and it's crazy how everyone is good-looking!
• In animes in general I noticed that most people are good-looking, and a few characters are characterized by the fact that they're not or just look different.

If you take a look at the art being posted on some D&D subreddits, there's a huge portion of them that are good-looking. But as you say, not many monstruous, or weird looking characters. I like playing these characters so it was a shock for me at first that people were like "ewww, no I would never play a dwarf". But it's fine too.

The reality is that tabletops being a game of imagination, when my friend describes his character, in his head it's this badass anime like attractive dude, and in my head it becomes this more rugged dark-fantasy picture. Different sets of references! It's never been an issue for me and I don't see how it could really be.

Disney used to run a browser-based MMO based on Pirates of the Caribbean. I started playing with my nephew, but I have to admit it was kind of fun.

Anyway, one thing I loved is that you could easily build an ugly, overweight avatar, and there was no such thing in the game as bonus stats on clothing, so you could you pick your look and stick with it. So I had a fat, balding (not badass bald...receding hairline bald) pirate in torn pants and a vest (no shirt) named Bartholomew Greasepigge. (The Greasepigge was generated by the game. How awesome is that?)

Loved that character.

 

[le Redoutable]

I do think that barbarians hate complicated technologies
Are these great engineers, coming from a distant earth, breaking items to challenge Smiths as regards to research and development ?

 

[Northern Phoenix]

I do think that barbarians hate complicated technologies
Are these great engineers, coming from a distant earth, breaking items to challenge Smiths as regards to research and development ?

The Industrial Revolution And Its Consequences Have Been A Disaster For The Barbarian Class

 

[Garthanos]

Disney used to run a browser-based MMO based on Pirates of the Caribbean. I started playing with my nephew, but I have to admit it was kind of fun.

Anyway, one thing I loved is that you could easily build an ugly, overweight avatar, and there was no such thing in the game as bonus stats on clothing, so you could you pick your look and stick with it. So I had a fat, balding (not badass bald...receding hairline bald) pirate in torn pants and a vest (no shirt) named Bartholomew Greasepigge. (The Greasepigge was generated by the game. How awesome is that?)

Loved that character.

World of Warcraft not that long ago implemented new body types. Before you had 2 variations of mesomorphic male (bulky human and a lighter build elf) and arguably 1 variation almost mesomorphic female. They introduced a race of very human large legitimately Endomorphic male and female. And there are already Ectomorphic male npcs I am hoping they make a player option. There are small races in the game that are cartoonish? goblins/gnomes and humanoid foxes with proportions like ummm children or something? The functional differences of the races are sometimes subtle mechanically but the visuals and the npcs make the differences quite real.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's an interesting topic that's not limited only to TTRPGs. You see the same trend in other type of games. A majority of people trend towards attractive or good-looking characters. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a bit unsettling at first when you come from a different sub-culture.

Not sure I like the notion that I "come from a different sub-culture"...

After all, we're discussing role-playing games here and D&D is where it started.

Sure people want attractive avatars. But getting everything you want does not necessarily make for a better game. Having to choose is interesting.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

World of Warcraft not that long ago implemented new body types. Before you had 2 variations of mesomorphic male (bulky human and a lighter build elf) and arguably 1 variation almost mesomorphic female. They introduced a race of very human large legitimately Endomorphic male and female. And there are already Ectomorphic male npcs I am hoping they make a player option. There are small races in the game that are cartoonish? goblins/gnomes and humanoid foxes with proportions like ummm children or something? The functional differences of the races are sometimes subtle mechanically but the visuals and the npcs make the differences quite real.

Sorry to say for anyone reading this, but this didn't actually happen.

WoW has not "implemented new body types". Nor did it ever have "2 variations of mesomorphic male and 1 variation of mesomorphic female". Blizzard always had wildly exaggerated and varied figures for all the races in WoW. The race Garthanos is referring to aren't "a new body type", and they aren't even the first race in WoW which has a gut or is an "endomorph" (if we want to use that ridiculous term) - that'd be the Pandaren back in 2012, though honestly given how steroid-pumped and blocky male humans in WoW look like, you'd be hard to say what their original frame was like.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sure people want attractive avatars. But getting everything you want does not necessarily make for a better game. Having to choose is interesting.

Not having to have characters who you feel uncomfortable playing does in fact, necessarily make for a better game, by any normal measure of "better" that I can think of. I've read your posts on this in this thread and you haven't presented any actual argument, just engaged in a lot of nostalgia and mythmaking.

By mythmaking I'm talking about the idea that huge hulking people are more dangerous combatants in a reliable way, which history is quick to show is not true. What history shows is that training, discipline, smart tactics, good equipment, and so on reliably defeat "I'm big and strong and my weapon is pretty huge!".

Also re: mythmaking, I mean this idea:

The idea you need to compromise on beauty and smarts to create a fearsome warrior is truly dead

LOL! That's never been the case. Ever. You never needed to do that. It doesn't even make sense. Obviously a smarter warrior is a better warrior, and athletic people tend to be hot people. You're praising Sword and Sorcery (well, insulting it less than all other fantasy), but Conan is one HOTTTTTT PIECE OF BEEF, as reflected in people's reactions to him in the stories (especially The Ladieeeez who are all over that). He's not "compromising beauty". He's not a "muscle mountain" in the books. In the books he isn't Arnie-built, he's just powerfully built and tall (indeed the fact that Arnie was "too bulky" for Conan was a frequent complaint about the 1981 Conan movie in the 1980s and 1990s).

Your nostalgia is FAKE nostalgia, and your complaint about "this millenium" is just false. It's never been true in RPGs. Ever! Even the early short-lived "sexist version" of 1E (which a deviation from D&D, which didn't do that), the constraints you're describing were not, in fact, in place. You could be a 5'4" 110lb nerd in glasses with 18/00 Strength, you just needed to be a human male (who, hilariously, were stronger than any wimpy 6'7" 230lb half-orc ever could be - they were limited to 18/99). It's literally a lie to say you had to be a "muscle mountain".

The closest I can think of is what, Basic Roleplaying-based stuff like Elric/Stormbringer, where SIZ was a factor. Maybe some other RPGs had that, but even in those, you didn't need to be a "muscle mountain" to kill people with a sword or axe or w/e highly effectively. Certainly in D&D/AD&D that's never been the case though. It was always a choice.

What you're actually complaining about, it seems, is people making a different choice to the one you wanted them to make. So you're mad that you can't control how other people make choices in creating their own characters. That's undeniable. That is literally what you're expressing frustration with - the fact that other people have the freedom to make characters you don't like - and you've made up an entirely fictional period of RPG history where you had to be an unattractive and dim character in order to be good in melee combat:

a male muscle mountain (or a Gimli, or, to be honest, an Orc) if you want to excel at killing people with a heavy object, you basically have zero choice in gaming product published this millenium.

But that was NEVER A THING. That period didn't happen. And post-millennium, all we've seen is people's choices changing, not game rules on this.

I have to say this is one of the rare merits of being pretty old. I can remember back long enough to call out revisionist nonsense when I see it.

 

[Scott Christian]

What class would Conan the "Barbarian" even be?
Not really a barbarian, given none of the paths make sense. Maybe a fighter that chooses not to wear armor and has a level dip in rogue?

In the movies, it could be argued he is a barbarian/rogue with a touch of paladin. He has a spiritual protector, definite rogue skills, and barbarian fighting, movement and resistance to pain.

 

[Scott Christian]

Has D&D more or less given upon promotion of a barbarian that doesn't have overtly supernatural or magical features?

In 4e the barbarian was firmly placed in the Primal Power source. Even the essentials berserker was martial/primal. It took a bit of finagling to avoid the powers that didn't give you claws, flight,or lightning powers.

In 5e, barbarian base doesn't have unmistakable magical abilities. However once you get passed the bad berserker, the subclasses really push the Rage Magic. 5e barbarian subclasses are straight up called "primal paths" and mostly adjust your rage by having spirits or energy spout out of your barbarian when they rage. The Totem Warrior takes along while to not be visibly magical from the outside. However WOTC has the other paths quickly run pass the barbarian having blatant supernatural feature.

Even in 3e, the prestige classes and feats that weren't patchworks to the rigid system to give barbarians options... quickly go down the "when you rage you turn into a bear" mindset.

So has the D&D designers and community given up on the martial barbarian? Or is it more that the supernatural primal barbarian is more exciting and easier to design and homebrew?

One thing I feel D&D is missing or losing is the Warrior of Physicality. The fighter, as time marches on, has become more academic in its method of fighting. Fighters have become masters of the weapon arts. Whereas traditionally the barbarian was just harder better, faster stronger and would cleave opponents in two with mostly their higher strength and speed. However there has been a shift of barbarians being more warlocky and reliant on the support of spirits, gods, or straight magic to make the axe swing faster. If the axe swings faster at all.

I think this has been the push since 3e for ALL classes. In 4e, it really started to sweep across every class. In 5e, I felt that they actually pulled back a little (compared to 4e). But, as you play any class, you begin to notice most of the abilities are reliant on magic.