Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[Shadowslayer]

I sorta see what you're getting at...but older editions had an implied style too. Its always been up to the individual DM to tweak the game to his liking. The big difference is the old rulebooks used to come right out and say that. Now, not so much.

I mean, a designer has to design a game for maximum playability for the most people. If they went and made allowances for every different "style" of RPG, we'd have a gazillion options, but no core game. I doubt that'd be a recipe for mass success.

Plus, hardcore RPGers are a persnickety lot anyway. And the designers know that. You're not going to make everyone happy. So may as well try to make MOST of them happy.

And for the ones who like a different style, there's the OGL. Go nuts.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[painandgreed]

By style I mean this...

I agree those things are there, but I think they are easily fixed. A new XP chart (mine starts at 1000 XP for level 2 and goes up by a multiple of 1.6 every level afterwards) solves the ever rapidly increasing power, and if you want less or no spell casters or magic items in the game, don't put them in. Sure, some monsters become tougher or impossible to beat, but that just means that the DM actually has to do some work or the players actually have to worry about their next combat. The worst thing to happen to D&D has been CR and ECL which has led to lazy DMs and whiney players. In fact, if you did the second, you probably wouldn't have to do the first as players would have to concentrate on creatures below their level (if they are metagaming like that) and that will most likely slow down their advancement some.

 

[adwyn]

I too am an old curmudgeon and gotta agree with you. But I have also noticed a profound difference in the adherence to the style dogma I encounter online versus the real world .

 

[painandgreed]

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly. They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control." And the characters were supposed to be "exceptional" so that low-level magic wasn't all that commonplace. As a result, the default settings felt more medieval and less Harry Potter-ish.

Yes, characters did advance more slowly in the olden days. With 3.x it is designed to have people advance to level 20 with a year of weekly play. Most games in the old days (that I was in) did not advance that much in two years of weekly play. However, advancement and levels of magic items varied widely from DM to DM. The thing that changed was that D&D presented a set level of expectation for people to follow in 3.x that did nor really exist before. From personal experience, I would say that the current expected standard does exceed what I ever experienced in any of my old 1E or 2E games.

 

[beepeearr]

If by "low-magic," you mean no magic shops, characters defined by their personal abilities rather than their 30 piece magical accessory set, and worlds where the spell effects of low-level D&D spells aren't commonplace, then yeah, I guess maybe I do mean low-magic.

It's funny, but I remember the previous editions much more differently then you. I most remember scouring every inch of a dungeon looking for every single gp and magic item that I could find. What magic items we found defined our character since for the most part once your class was chosen you really didn't change much except for a new class ability here or there. The majority of our cool "personal abilities" came from what ever magic item we happen to be weilding. The DM could (and often would in my experience) map out how he wanted the players to play by handing out certain items as treasure.

If anything 3E, with feats, set ability bonuses, and a much better skill system which allows a character to actually improve at something as his level increases, a much looser multiclass system, and the removal of class restrictions, allows for a game that is much more defined by the abilities of the character and not just his loot.

Think what you want in your game. Is it the bookkeeping you dislike, the power level of the game, or just the perceived mundane quality of magic.

For my game when I run games in an area were magic is rare, I allow the characters to spend their time, gold, and exp in training. First off they need someone with the abilities they wish to learn who can train them. He'll be the one making any neccesary skill checks. The PC provides the Gold, Time, and XP. I basically handle it like magic item creation except the gold piece cost is quadrupled, the xp costs are doubled and your success is more dependent on your instructor then yourself (you can grant a synergy bonus through aid another though). And training time is measured in weeks not days like item creation.

In the campaigns I've used it in, I haven't seen any problems. The players wind up with less trained abilities than they would have had in magic items, but the abilities are more flexible and in most cases nonmagical n nature, which is why the cost in time, gold, and xp are all increased. Plus the training and searching for an appropriate trainer can make for some interesting role-play.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Okay. Let me see if I can restate it. Yes, D&D has ALWAYS had advancing characters, magic items, and lots of spells.

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly.

Yes. The average campaign didnt go into the teens. Meaning half the rules were superflous, and poorly tested.

They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control."

If by "out of control" you mean awarded by the book treasure, or ran any published adventures, then yes. I think its been heavily proven that this theoretical land where players enjoy risking their characters neck for a few coppers and a potion of healing exists firmly in Bizzarro world. There was a great Dragon artical called "the Game that Wasnt" that explored the hipocracy of the DMG advice against giving out too much treasure and the actual treasure tables and published scenarios. Nowadays, it seems too many DM's preen on how stingy they can be, how much their players love to be screwed over etc.

And the characters were supposed to be "exceptional" so that low-level magic wasn't all that commonplace. As a result, the default settings felt more medieval and less Harry Potter-ish.

And as a result, the incorrectly assumed default setting was lame. Seriously, if cure light wounds is a 1st level spell, and 1st level isnt all that high level, it IMPACTS the world. I'm frankly sick and tired of people trying to run midieval campaigns when the players can cast spells. Pick one. If your guys can cast spells, its not low magic anymore, despite you wanting "magic to be mysterious" or some such nonsense. If raise dead is 5th level, it means its available to important individuals. No one important dies of regular disease, etc. For once, its nice that the setting reflects the rules. 1st and 2nd edition settings were poorly written in that regard... no big surprise given their authors.

 

[Seeten]

And as a result, the incorrectly assumed default setting was lame. Seriously, if cure light wounds is a 1st level spell, and 1st level isnt all that high level, it IMPACTS the world. I'm frankly sick and tired of people trying to run midieval campaigns when the players can cast spells. Pick one. If your guys can cast spells, its not low magic anymore, despite you wanting "magic to be mysterious" or some such nonsense. If raise dead is 5th level, it means its available to important individuals. No one important dies of regular disease, etc. For once, its nice that the setting reflects the rules. 1st and 2nd edition settings were poorly written in that regard... no big surprise given their authors.

Ouch.

 

[Erik Mona]

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly. They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control." And the characters were supposed to be "exceptional" so that low-level magic wasn't all that commonplace. As a result, the default settings felt more medieval and less Harry Potter-ish.

As far as I can remember from being on the periphery of the D&D publishing operation during the birth of third edition, the advancement rate was sped up because market research suggested most campaigns lasted only 6 months or so. The reasoning, as I remember it, was to put more of the game into that time, so that a lot of development wasn't "wasted" on levels that very few players ever achieved.

The third edition experience progression is linear, rather than curved (as it had been before). These days, it ought to take just about as long to go from first to second level as it does from 18th to 19th, and that certainly was not the case in earlier editions.

I'm not sure if that "flavor" is Ptolus influencing D&D, but I find it a telling comment on Monte's gaming tastes. As he said, it's D&D turned up. I don't want a campaign world where bars have "no detections" signs posted. It might be fun for a diversion, but for the most part, it feels kinda "Monty Python-esque" in its absurdity.

That's really not how Ptolus works in operation, although I wouldn't be surprised to see such a thing. Ptolus is basically Monte's attempt to model a fantasy city if the D&D rules actually governed the way things work in the world. There are invisible folks lurking in the shadows (sometimes), monsters walking the street, etc. It's actually really fun, but it is a little different from the pseudo-medieval fantasy that most of us were playing in the early 1980s.

It's a LONG way from the kind of fantasy that got me interested in fantasy roleplaying games. But then again, maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon.

Maybe.

For what it's worth, I truly appreciate you trying to understand my point.

I think your point is that first edition provided a ruleset to emulate quasi-historical medieval fantasy whereas third edition provides a set of campaign assumptions that are based on the rules. Quasi-historical fantasy seems increasingly less important these days, with Eberron being perhaps the best example.

In 1e, the rules were secondary to the feel, whereas in 3rd edition the feel is secondary to the rules.

Is that what you're trying to say?

--Erik

 

[Gundark]

Has D&D become too D&Dish?

One complaint i never thought I'd hear

 

[Andor]

Okay. Let me see if I can restate it. Yes, D&D has ALWAYS had advancing characters, magic items, and lots of spells.

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly. They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control." And the characters were supposed to be "exceptional" so that low-level magic wasn't all that commonplace. As a result, the default settings felt more medieval and less Harry Potter-ish.

I'm not sure if that "flavor" is Ptolus influencing D&D, but I find it a telling comment on Monte's gaming tastes. As he said, it's D&D turned up. I don't want a campaign world where bars have "no detections" signs posted. It might be fun for a diversion, but for the most part, it feels kinda "Monty Python-esque" in its absurdity.

It's a LONG way from the kind of fantasy that got me interested in fantasy roleplaying games. But then again, maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon.

For what it's worth, I truly appreciate you trying to understand my point.

Old D&D always had 'fluff' that went on at great length about how rare magic was, how wondrous to the average peasant etc. etc. etc. It was never true in play though, every second orc had a plus +1 sword, or Bohemian ear-spoon. Most characters has a magic weapon by second level.

There are three big differences between the older editions and 3.x D&D in this reguard.

1) Wealth guidelines by level let you know when you are being to stingy/monty haul by the games baselines.

2) Walmart style magic item shops are expected by the players, and are the one default setting feature that I would chuck instantly. Old school the GM controlled what the players had access to. In 3e players expect to control their characters items. I'm fine with that if they want to pay the feats to make their own items, but don't expect Crazy Vaklavs hut o' magic in East Beefcake to automatically have a flying acidic kama of flensing.

3) A closer alignment in general between the fluff and the crunch. Settings like Eberron and Ptolus try to acknowledge the realities of a D&D style world.