Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[Michael Silverbane]

2) Walmart style magic item shops are expected by the players, and are the one default setting feature that I would chuck instantly. Old school the GM controlled what the players had access to. In 3e players expect to control their characters items. I'm fine with that if they want to pay the feats to make their own items, but don't expect Crazy Vaklavs hut o' magic in East Beefcake to automatically have a flying acidic kama of flensing.

I don't know where this assupmtion comes from. I have, not once, in any D&D campaign I've run (before 3rd edition or since) had a magic item emporium. And my players (some of whom, I know, play only in my campaigns) still ask about them. Its wierd.

Later
silver

 

[Digital M@]

Of course MC and the other authors opinions imacted the feel of the game, that is what authors, creators and writers do. I think all of your questions were thoughly answered when 3E came out. Most of it was simple, such as faster lvl developement because according to research most campaigns didn't last longer than a year and faster advancement allowed players to experience more levels in the year.

D&D has always been high magic, that is what it is about. The idea of low magic gritty feel is a more recent development following a similar trend in popular fantasy writing. Anyways, it is a flexable enough system to modify to fit what you need.

IMO, the only thing really done poorly was the skill system. They wanted skills to play a greater part in the game, but were unable to come up with a simple balaced system to integrate them. Most classes don't get enough skill points to make use of them and therefor make skills somewhat worthless. But, you can tweak that easily enough as well. But this is for another thread altogether.


D&D was always high magic, was always about getting stuff and getting tough enough to kill kewl creatures that go bump in the night.

 

[WayneLigon]

The style has become so fundamental to the system that there's no room for tweaking for style anymore.

D&D has no style to it, save in the core assumptions of the game that the pull quote mentions. And those have been assumptions in the game since the day of it's inception. Things like Iron Heroes, Midnight, Forgotten Realms, Eberon, or Ptolus show how flexible D&D is by adapting it to specific styles and world building assumptions.

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly. They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control."

It did, because the XP table basically doubled every level, until at the mid levels you were having to get the same XP you'd gained the entire previous part of the campaign just to go up a level. I played D&D for 20 years under that system with campaigns lasting years in length; never, never did we get past about 12th. Ever. And that's with playing D&D once a week religiously. Look at the various threads and the WOTC marketing survey: the majority of groups (1) don't stay together that long and (2) don't meet that often. With the new system, high level play is actually possible now without simply starting at high level or playing the same characters for seven and eight years at a stretch.

The whole 'stingy with magic items' thing is not part of the style of D&D per se. It was an abberation created by early GM's.

If anyone was playing D&D as written as a midieval simulation with no associated world building limitations, well, they weren't paying attention or they simply chose to ignore the giant elephant in the corner called 'easy to learn and cast magic with fundamentally world-changing effects'.

 

[Crothian]

1) Wealth guidelines by level let you know when you are being to stingy/monty haul by the games baselines.

But thewy are guidelines only. All you have to do is tell your players you aren't looking at them or using them.

2) Walmart style magic item shops are expected by the players, and are the one default setting feature that I would chuck instantly. Old school the GM controlled what the players had access to. In 3e players expect to control their characters items. I'm fine with that if they want to pay the feats to make their own items, but don't expect Crazy Vaklavs hut o' magic in East Beefcake to automatically have a flying acidic kama of flensing.

This seems to be a common on line complaint that few people actually see in game. I have yet to read a setting that had a Walmart magical item shop in it.

 

[Andor]

But thewy are guidelines only. All you have to do is tell your players you aren't looking at them or using them.

Obviously. That's why I was careful to include the word baseline. Honestly it's more for the GM's benefit that the players.

This seems to be a common on line complaint that few people actually see in game. I have yet to read a setting that had a Walmart magical item shop in it.

I've yet to play in a game that didn't have such a shop in it. In every game we get into town and the players just look at their cash, page through the DMG and hand the GM a list of what they want, and almost always get rubber stamped. Forget a limited selection. Also forget haggleing or any possibility that the shop keeper or townspeople might possibly cut you some slack just because you saved them, their livestock, and their immortal souls from horror and torment.

 

[Tuzenbach]

However, it is my impression that in "the old days" (that is, pre 3e), characters used to advance more slowly. They used to get a few magic items, except in campaigns where the DM had let the level of magic get "out of control." And the characters were supposed to be "exceptional" so that low-level magic wasn't all that commonplace. As a result, the default settings felt more medieval and less Harry Potter-ish.

Ah, I think I see what you mean:


Gygaxian D&D = Conservative

Cooksian D&D = Liberal

 

[Tuzenbach]

Most games in the old days (that I was in) did not advance that much in two years of weekly play.

Ah yes! The ole "we can get to 7th level in a month but then we're screwed" method of play. Unless you were a Thief, have fun playing the "waiting game" for all levels beyond 7!

 

[Psion]

By style I mean this...

The things that make d20 fantasy unique—the prevalence of magic (including the specific spells we all know), the ever-increasing power of individuals, and the creatures of the MM—

Hmmm... well, if you -- or Monte, really -- asserts that this consitutes a single inevitable style, I think I have to disagree. Much in the same way that I disagree with many people's assertions about what a D&D world will inevitably look like based on a bunch of assumptions that are less than univerally shared.

And, you know what. The current designers seem to agree with this. The feel of FR is different than the feel of Eberron. The line I triggered on up there is the presence of powerful individuals. Eberron has fewer high level npcs, and many powerful NPCs are npc classes.

In the same way, you, the GM, are in charge of demographics. Depending on the way you lay out your world, a 10th level character may be a promising beginner or a champion of ages.

This doesn't even get into more serious tweaks like XP tweaks offered in the DMG, and other tweaks in Unearthed Arcana and third party products like Iron Heroes and Advanced GM's Guide.

If by "low-magic," you mean no magic shops, characters defined by their personal abilities rather than their 30 piece magical accessory set, and worlds where the spell effects of low-level D&D spells aren't commonplace, then yeah, I guess maybe I do mean low-magic.

I guess if that's what people want out of D&D, it's not my game anymore. However, I am just asking. Am I that much in the minority?

It may or may not be. It's really sort of irrelevant -- if what the game offers you out of the box is not what you want, you are confronted with changing things if you want better satisfaction.

What I would not agree with is the notion that you are helpless. GMs can and should take charge of the feel of their game, but too many don't. One also should not fret that third party products are to be relied upon to get you a feel you want... you should be happy people are putting them out! They are there to help you! If a product does something for you easier than you can do it yourself, then that's a boon to you.

 

[Psion]

2) Walmart style magic item shops are expected by the players, and are the one default setting feature that I would chuck instantly. Old school the GM controlled what the players had access to. In 3e players expect to control their characters items. I'm fine with that if they want to pay the feats to make their own items, but don't expect Crazy Vaklavs hut o' magic in East Beefcake to automatically have a flying acidic kama of flensing.

I don't know where this assupmtion comes from. I have, not once, in any D&D campaign I've run (before 3rd edition or since) had a magic item emporium.

Me either. I don't see any passage in the book implying that every city has any item you could want... it just caps the value of items that can be found. I have brokers that can get you some items, but unless you comission someone, availability is a crapshoot IMC.

 

[Evilhalfling]

It's funny, but I remember the previous editions much more differently then you. I most remember scouring every inch of a dungeon looking for every single gp and magic item that I could find. What magic items we found defined our character since for the most part once your class was chosen you really didn't change much except for a new class ability here or there. The majority of our cool "personal abilities" came from what ever magic item we happen to be weilding. The DM could (and often would in my experience) map out how he wanted the players to play by handing out certain items as treasure.

This was my experiance with earlier additions as well, charaters were defined by magic items and personal history. The thing to remember is in 1st and 2nd each making magic item required a seperate quest and rare components. Also the miniumum level for making any permanent items was 12th (or 16th for the permanance spell) Logically this ment that utility magic items such as +2 swords or rings were a waste of time for a wizard.

IMoC Most items found had a purpose and minor flare, such as the +1 sword that would hold poison, the unbreakable +2 axe of Herionus, etc. Without wealth guidelines items considered very powerful could be found in small numbers - like the whole party getting rings of fire protection for a planar journey, or getting the flying carpet big enough for the whole group to ride.

Now -
Magic item shops are not part of my game, but large towns tend to have a temple or wizard who will make items to order. I also pay attention to the level limits - so rings and staves are far rarer than presented by the tables, and good luck finding some NPC who actually took craft rod, much less one with the specific meta magic feat you wanted.

The PCs responded by taking the feats themselves, each caster having 2 creation feats by 15th lvl. - and they are regularly approched by NPCs looking for magic items - made to order .