Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

JohnSnow said:
I suppose it should come as no surprise to me that the person who seems to "get" my comment the most is one of my fellow Iron Heroes fans. Mike really tapped into a certain mindset, didn't he? ;)
I only wish Mike had stuck around for another year or two with Malhavoc - long enough to generate some more IH goodness and perhaps even IH 1.5.

Let me state that I have NO problem with retraining rules. However, if I were operating under the same assumptions, I'd have to agree with Monte. But here's the difference. Monte's assuming a character levels up EVERY MONTH. And THAT makes me twitch. If I operated under the same assumption, I'd be forced to agree with him. Fortunately, I don't, and so the retraining rules don't upset my suspension of disbelief.
Unfortunately I'm not all that familiar with the new retraining rules being away from D&D for about 8-10 months now but I can comment on why level advancement is faster in 3e than in previous editions. Probably before even the earliest serious development of 3e WotC did some market research and found that the majority of D&D players played very infrequently (I forget now what the average was now, perhaps 1/month or every two weeks maybe). Anyway it was decided advancement would be made swifter by default so they typical player would see some kind of advancement as they played.

I can understand why they did that and that even the hordes of EnWorlders by no means make up more than a mere fraction of the D&D players out there. There are plenty of options to stretch out advancement (personally mine's all story-based) so I'm generally unconcerned on that front so long as the players are happy with it.

As an aside, it's nice to know I can cause such a lively, and productive, debate. ;)
Indeed, kudos on this interesting thread. :)
 

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Andor said:
Obviously. That's why I was careful to include the word baseline. Honestly it's more for the GM's benefit that the players.



I've yet to play in a game that didn't have such a shop in it. In every game we get into town and the players just look at their cash, page through the DMG and hand the GM a list of what they want, and almost always get rubber stamped. Forget a limited selection. Also forget haggleing or any possibility that the shop keeper or townspeople might possibly cut you some slack just because you saved them, their livestock, and their immortal souls from horror and torment.

Ok, this seems like a decent polling idea, so... Let's see how many have magic shops.

As far as literature goes, well, the game in play resembled the lit in very, very limited ways. The fact that every party contained at least two spell casters and usually 5 or 6 characters meant that it didn't really resemble anything by the "classic" S&S authors.
 

Andor said:
You'll notice that in all of those settings, the heroes (except for Elric) are fighting men battleing powerful but evil wizards, and that magic is an arcane art, known only to a very few, who are corrupted and depraved by their eldritch lore (including Elric).

The problem in D&D is that everybody wants to play wizards. They also want to be a good guy. So the game is set up to accomadate this desire. However, if magic is easy, and not inherently evil or at least dehumanizing, then it no longer looks like the worlds of the fiction you love, and instead becomes D&D.

That's a pretty good observation. Unearthed Arcana "Sanity Loss from Spellcasting" (p. 196), here I come!
 

I guess the new D&D (opposed to Ye Olde D&D and AD&D) is experiencing since it's begining a kind of "armamentist race" regarding it's characters powers.

I mean. The settings are getting more "powerfull" because they are trying to accomodate the power that the player characters usually have. And the player characters are getting increasilly more powerfull with almost every book in order to shine out from the "rest of the world".

Back when I played AD&D (and YOD&D), the characters where really important from the begining. The 1st level warrior was a fully trained soldier. The 1st level cleric was one of the few people his god actually granted power. 1st level was like a barrier that separated the true heroes from the rest of the world.

Nowadays some of my players (actually, the ones more system-savy) ask me to start the game from 3rd or 5th level in order to be heroes, and not a bunch of nobodies. And I really do feel like they're only "heroes" as the 1st level people from AD&D when they reach the 3rd level.

And that's what bugs me: D&D is going too Dragon Ball Z for me. The rules are trying to raise the powerlevel bar every now and then in order to help the characters shine. But this seems to only make the characters need more and more powers to do so.
 

JohnSnow said:
But here's the difference. Monte's assuming a character levels up EVERY MONTH. And THAT makes me twitch. If I operated under the same assumption, I'd be forced to agree with him.

Where does this assumption see print? Is it just in Ptolus?
 

Fellow Iron Heroes maven though I may be, I'll have to disagree with the OP on this one... or rather, suggest that the narrative he's detailing might need some refining.

IMHO, there are really only two reasons why D&D 3e might seem to suggest a particular fantasy subgenre now as opposed to in previous editions:

1) Previous editions were more open-ended than 3e about certain concepts like balance between classes, the effect of a mix of classes on successful completion of encounters, and especially the availability, means of creation, and suggested distribution of magic items. In reality, it's no easier or more difficult to play a gritty Thieves' World style game, a pseudo-historical Vikings game, or a classical-period God of War pastiche game in 3e than in any previous edition; it's just that there actually are play balance issues related to changing the rules that are enumerated in the books now. The basic system engine is clearly capable of being adapted to low-magic or different-genre games; witness Midnight, IH, Grim Tales, etc etc etc. The kicker is that designers take the changes required to effect lower magic into the mechanics themselves. 1e and 2e included no rules or guidelines as to how to run an encounter differently for a party of four characters with a few potions and a +1 item or two as opposed to a party with a fighter clad in +5 plate mail with the feared hammer/girdle/gauntlets combination. 3e does. That seems like a feature rather than a genre-informing "bug" to me; if you know the mechanical effect ascribed to something, it's easier to tinker with it.

2) D&D designers have created settings like Eberron and Ptolus in which a logical extrapolation of D&D informs the flavor and nature of the game world itself. This is something that has been discussed at long length from the halcyon days of Arduin and early 1e; I've read letters by several gamers who created wacky magitech-ish worlds featuring cleric-run hospitals, magical streetlights, teleport-pad cargo transports, etc., and I've been in a few games with this sort of flavor. However, the potential for magic to transform a setting was simply ignored or worked around for much of the history of the game by setting designers, who clearly wanted to fit a squarish but round-looking peg (D&D, a game ostensibly designed for high-fantasy/sword-and-sorcery roleplaying but sometimes fitting a superhero-level genre) into a thoroughly round hole (the classic fantasy world).

I don't really think that this signals a departure in how D&D actually gets played; as Psion mentioned, demographics are in the hands of the DM, as (really speaking) are magic and magic items; there is a reason those are called guidelines. The nice thing about this sort of discussion, however (and perhaps the nice thing about 3e, having made this transparent) is that we can talk specifically and explicitly about how to make D&D conform better to the genres we like, should those genres involve changing base assumptions of the game system. Hence the approach behind, say, Iron Heroes.

Incidentally, I'd disagree that 3e has somehow raised the power bar; if anything, the PHB and DMG pretty explicitly spell out the fact that members of PC classes are exceptional individuals, and 3e does well by introducing a comprehensive set of NPC classes. The demographics also help to keep high-level PC-class folks pretty uncommon. In fact, if anything, 3e has afforded some setting designers (cough *FR* cough) the opportunity to tone down some of the NPC power in existing settings.
 

And that's what bugs me: D&D is going too Dragon Ball Z for me. The rules are trying to raise the powerlevel bar every now and then in order to help the characters shine. But this seems to only make the characters need more and more powers to do so.

ROTF. Would help if people would actually WATCH the shows they use for comparison. If PC's were like DBZ characters, they would be the weakest putzes on the block, constantly have their butts handed to them by obviously superior enemies and only survive by the deus ex machina arrival of another super powered NPC. :]

It's funny, Quasketon has a fantastic series of posts talking about the level advancements between various modules. 1e modules advanced PC's at EXACTLY the same rate as 3e modules up to about 9th level.

Now, one thing I do agree with is the assertion that 1e PC's were far more important out of the chute. True. That's because, by about 7th level, they could take on the largest of dragons and reasonably expect to win. By 9th level, there was pretty much nothing other than the largest of demons that could threaten the characters.

Yes, 3e characters are more "powerful" in that they can mechanically have higher numbers. But, compared to the encounters designed in the system, 1e characters are FAR more powerful.
 

ruleslawyer said:
Fellow Iron Heroes maven though I may be, I'll have to disagree with the OP on this one... or rather, suggest that the narrative he's detailing might need some refining.

What rule slawyer said.
 

Erik Mona said:
In 1e, the rules were secondary to the feel, whereas in 3rd edition the feel is secondary to the rules.
For whatever reason, this has struck a cord with me, and I'd have to agree.

hmmm :\
 

Hussar said:
ROTF. Would help if people would actually WATCH the shows they use for comparison. If PC's were like DBZ characters, they would be the weakest putzes on the block, constantly have their butts handed to them by obviously superior enemies and only survive by the deus ex machina arrival of another super powered NPC. :]

Plus, they'd spend ten sessions "powering up" before doing anything. Heh.

Later
silver
 

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